Episode Transcript
[00:00:13] Speaker A: Welcome to Brainforest Café with Dennis McKenna.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Lee Kaiser was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in the 1980s and is a wildlife ecologist who has lived in various communities throughout the americas.
He has worked on permaculture projects, natural building endeavors, hosting and organizing events and retreats, performing surveys for conservation investigations, agricultural and natural medicine initiatives, conducting artisanal essential oil distillation, taking part in music production, volunteering in educational workshops, and generally participating in cultural, scientific, and international exchanges.
Lee met Dennis in 2016 when they were both in Minnesota, and their mutual interests in amazonian and andean ecology and ethnography have kept them in contact over the years.
Lee experienced episodes of psychosis while working intensively with plant medicines and is endeavoring to integrate those life altering occurrences into his journey by finding ways to connect with and provide support for people who confront similar situations. He currently lives with his partner in Argentina and has primarily lived over the last decade in Colorado, Minnesota, Peru, and Mexico. His travels and experiences in foreign lands, as well as in living with people from many different cultural backgrounds, have allowed him to dive deep into a broad range of fields and settings while having also staying plugged into some broader networks of connectivity and interdisciplinary explorations.
Lee, it's a pleasure to welcome you to the brain forest cafe.
[00:02:19] Speaker A: Thanks for having me here, Dennis. It's great to be with you.
[00:02:22] Speaker B: Despite all our technical challenge, we have overcome them.
It's great to have you. Having read your bio just now and read it several times over, you've done a lot.
You're very art person to classify because you've done so many things.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I've tried to keep busy, that's for sure. I've always been, had a lot of broad interests, always been more of a generalist than a specialist.
So, yeah, after I finished school and I started traveling, that kind of opened my eyes to a lot of different things, and I just started exploring, trying my hand in different fields and, yeah, I sort of. I wear many hats. You could say, I guess I don't cleanly fit into a lot of the categorical boxes.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: You could say, look, that's a good thing. Yeah, kind of the same way. I've already always been an interdisciplinary type of person. But you've lived in many communities, and you have a. Through a mere bio and other material of yours that I've read, you have a great sensitivity to nature and our place in it, and you have worked with different communities to try and foster those relationships. And I liked very much the essay that you posted that you gave to us, which we will post on the podcast from your time at Novalis, maybe you could start there. And how did you get involved with them? Was that your first experience living in a jungle environment with the community, or.
[00:04:08] Speaker A: It was, yeah. So I lived in the jungle. I got to know the jungle in Costa Rica in 2007, and so I did a study abroad exchange program, and that was my first kind of introduction to the jungle and kind of getting to know what it's like to inhabit the jungle and spend time research, you know, and just to explore the jungle a little bit. But I actually like living full time in the jungle and being a part of a community. And that type of setting was, in fact, in Peru. Yes, in this place called nobles, which is in the southeastern corner of Peru. It's kind of by the border with Brazil and Bolivia, where the three countries meet. The region is called the Madre de Dios region of Peru.
[00:04:56] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: There's a really well known park, their national park, called the Manu National park.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: It's a world nature reserve.
[00:05:07] Speaker A: Yep, exactly. Yeah. And so I went and I went down there. Actually, I was just backpacking and traveling through Peru because I always wanted to go see the Amazon. I grew up with a lot of time spent in nature with my family, and that attracted me to wildlife sciences and ecology and learning more about nature academically and professionally. And so after I had that introduction to Costa Rica during my undergraduate studies, and that really, it inspired a lot more motivation to continue exploring different natural landscapes and checking out habitats that are unfamiliar to me and kind of going back to that inspiration or interest as a young child and all throughout my adolescence to know the Amazon rainforest, I always viewed that as like kind of the epitome of, you know, what biodiversity is all about and as a really unique and special ecosystem that was very drew me in a lot as a youngster. And so when I got the chance, after I finished my undergraduate studies and I started working independently and doing a lot of freelancing and contracting, helping out with, with different research projects, I had a chance to go down and spend a few months in Peru, and I was just backpacking and getting to know different organizations and groups doing conservation work and ecology related work. And I ended up joining a retreat, a two week retreat to go into the jungle and to work with ayahuasca.
That was my first experience with any kind of plant medicine or any kind of psychotropic, psychedelic substance, which also that had been something that had been speaking to me and generated a lot of interest.
The years leading up to that as a young man and in my early twenties, kind of naive or a little bit ignorant of that world, that landscape, referring to psychedelics. I didn't have any kind of experimental feelings phase with psychedelics as a young man, recreationally. And so that was my introduction actually to psychedelics. It was through, I wanted to see the Amazon and go, you know, into that potent source of biodiversity and get to know it from that side, from nature and the ecology side of things, and also culturally and working with us, working with the people who come from that jungle, from that region, learning a little bit about how they interact with and work with the jungle plants there and organisms. And then I wanted to have an experience of getting to know that world a little bit, doing some. Yeah, it was kind of a spiritual quest, I guess you could say.
And so that was what brought me down to Peru and that was my introduction to living in the jungle. That was my introduction to living in community really as well, being a part of a communal project. It's a retreat center. It functions as a retreat center, but there's kind of like a family, a core group of people that helps take care of the facilities and welcomes the groups and is just there to be support.
And so I ended up staying on and I went back and returned and helped out and volunteered and just did different programs with them and supported them and had amazing experiences down there and really. Yeah, felt a very cool connection with a lot of the people involved there. And that kept drawing me back. And so I spent maybe four or five years total, kind of coming and going, going back and helping out. And, yeah, it's a really special place and it was a really beautiful experience for me, very transformative. Also, I was 27, I think, when I went there. And so it was kind of at a time when a lot of things were shifting and opening up. And so, yeah, it was a very special experience for me.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: Certainly it's an important time of life for anyone at that stage of life. But it seems to me that your experience with plant medicines in some ways was not typical for a person from our culture usually. I know in my case, and I know in many people's cases, we got interested in psychedelics before we came near any tradition of psychedelic use in an indigenous context. And then of course our experiences motivated us to try to make those connections and have those experiences. And it sounds like you skipped that part. You started using them in a traditional context, in the context of ayahuasca healing and that sort of thing from the very beginning.
[00:10:00] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, that's accurate. I think that was a very important aspect of my experience and introduction. And it's shaped me a lot. It's molded, I think, my experiences a lot and my path and just how I've worked with medicines and connected with the different plant teachers and with healers and ceremonial use of. Of plant medicines.
But it's. I don't think there's. I don't know. I don't think there's any right or wrong way to go about it. Of course, they're all different. But for me personally, I really appreciate and think it was an important thing for me that I didn't, you know, have any kind of recreational, experimental, you know, encounters with mushrooms or LSD or other substances that a lot of times in our culture nowadays, young people are exposed to those substances, those experiences in more of a recreational setting, just kind of partying or, you know, with friends. And it can be intentional, it can be, you know, spiritual, or it can. But for me, it was. Yeah, I felt like it was really important for me to understand the context of how to approach those compounds and those experiences. That was very beneficial for me and has really informed me in a lot of ways that I think has been very positive to see it through that framework and that lens. But also, that's me. It really resonates with my nature and how I view life, the kind of shamanic approach to things.
So, yeah, that was definitely a distinct part of my. I haven't met many people who, their first experience with any kind of psychedelic substance is doing a diet in the jungle with the curandera. There's not that many people, I think, who go right to the, you know, the heart of things and just dive right into the deep end. That's how I tend to explore things a lot of times, though.
[00:11:53] Speaker B: But, yeah, that's very unusual. You started at the top, kind of started with some of the most challenging plant medicines, and then later did you get into mushrooms or lsd or any of these things? Or has ayahuasca been primarily what you've been involved with when it comes to plant medicines?
[00:12:19] Speaker A: Yeah, later on. Over the course of the years afterward, and kind of my journey since then, I have.
I have worked with. I consumed mushrooms a little bit more kind of recreationally or just kind of on my own. I actually haven't had that much experience consuming them. But I lived in Palenque. I lived in southern Mexico for a couple years in a similar kind of situation, in a sort of a ceremonial retreat center kind of space in a community, and we were surrounded by cow pasture, by ranchers, there's Zebu cattle that the ranchers had all around our property. And so there were cubensis mushrooms that would come up after the rains almost all throughout the year. And so I would often collect them. I worked with them a lot, ANd I would dry them and, you know, but I didn't actually end up consuming them that often.
[00:13:15] Speaker B: I consumed them for other people or you collect.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: That's. Yeah, yeah, I mostly would, we also had bees. I was helping keep bees, and so I would actually, I would dry, we had a dehydrator. I would dry the mushrooms out and the FrUITiNg bodies, and then I would turn ThEM into a powder. I would pulverize them just basically using a BlEndEr. I would make a powder out of them. And a lot of times, I would store them in, in Honey. And, yeah, I would share them with my partner. That's where we met, actually, down there. And she had an affinity with, with that medicine in particular. She connected a lot with the mushrooms. So, yeah, I, at times, would just, you know, like, after drying them OUt, I would weigh, you know, three or four or 5 grams and just kind of separate them and, and that way, yeah, I had some medicine and to share with people who had come through or to share with the Family there, the people we were living with.
I did a little bit of, I tried some micro dosing with. So after I prepared the mushroom powder in honey, stored it that way, I would take a little bit of the honey with the powdered mushroom and do Kind of like, I don't know if it's an OfficiAl SorT of PAul stamets protocol of take the microdose one day and then have two days of rest. And so I kind of made my own protocol a little bit of, you know, having a routine of one day doing a little bit of yoga and taking a microdose and kind of tuning in that way. And then the second day, I would do some journaling and kind of creative process, and then the third day, I would try to do something a little bit more like spiritual or, you know, kind of just trying to find my own format or version that way of connecting with a microdose that way. It didn't, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I could sense it some days. I don't, I'm not a real big believer or proponent in microdosing. I, there's obviously, I mean, there's a lot more to be learned about, and there's a lot of potential there, I think. Um, possibly, but, uh, yeah, I never I never really went too deep with, with mushrooms. I tried acid, I think, once or twice, just like a small dose. Um, that was never. It's just never really been in my field. It's never really been around me by chance. But I did end up getting into a lot of other, mainly plant medicines, and mostly with other healers, traditional healers, and so wachuma, the mescaline based cactus, as well as peyote, there's a snuff called wilka and yopo, which are DMT based snuffs.
And so I got involved and participated in a lot of ceremonies, mainly with those medicines, with the wilka yopo snuff, and with huachuma and ayahuasca. Those are the main medicines that I worked with.
But, yeah, I kind of was open to working with people and medicines that kind of entered my field. I didn't really go out looking for things too much. I just kind of stayed open to what was sort of presenting itself, so to speak.
And I think, yeah, life kind of brought me what I needed at the times that I needed it.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: But did you ever feel a calling to become a quirandero, or to practice apprenticeship or other approaches you might have taken to become a person that you might call a curatoro, or are you, or not? You've lived with curanderos, you've lived in this traditional environment for a long time. Has it ever been something that you've wanted to do for yourself, to bring it to other people?
[00:17:06] Speaker A: Yes. Yes, absolutely.
I would say a few years, two or three years into starting to get to know and work with the medicines and with some of the teachers. I felt a really strong calling to that when I was in my. So I went down to Peru for the first time that I worked with medicine, and I did a two week, I did a dieta, which is kind of the traditional or the ancestral. I mean, I'm not, obviously, I don't need to explain it to you. You know very well what Dietta is, but just, you know, generally giving a little explanation for those who aren't as familiar. The dieta process is kind of how the teachers in the jungle, the curanderos, learn from, learn with doing their experimentation, so to speak, using a scientific term, learning how to work with the plants, receive the messages, the healing from the plants, and just kind of go into isolation, sort of dull out, quiet out, all the other distractions and other concerns of life, and go into the jungle to do kind of deep personal work.
And each healer, I think each tradition, each culture, they all have their own kind of framework, and they do it a little differently. But the general idea is you go into the jungle, go into isolation, clean up your diet, just simplify everything, and just try and establish a direct connection with one plant at a time. And ayahuasca has kind of been the.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: The plan, that anchor plant or the master.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: Yet it's not doing exclusively with ayahuasca.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. A lot of times, the ayahuasca is sort of like the portal or the bridge or the connecting point, um, the place where I, this, uh, retreat center called nova lis. And the people that I was working with, their approach and their philosophy was not to drink medicine during the dietta. You're just working with the plant that you're there to learn from or heal with, work with. And so we had a ceremony. There was a ceremony before you went into isolation, before dieta, and you were consuming ayahuasca then. But then during those seven days, when you're in isolation, you're just consuming the one plant that you went to diet with or that they recommended to you to work with. And then afterward, you have another ceremony with ayahuasca to kind of reintegrate. So in that format, in that place where I was, it was involved, but I wasn't consuming ayahuasca during the diet. I think in a lot of places, and with certain traditions and healers, they do consume, uh, ayahuasca, the brew during their diet. I've actually even heard that some of the way that they use, uh, the dietta process is they brew in the plant that they're trying to work with into their ayahuasca brew. And that creates another element, as opposed to just taking the dietta plant isolated from the ayahuasca. I'm sure you know a lot more about this, but I think there's a lot of different approaches, kind of.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: I think there is no one approach. I mean, it's like, there's no standard way to do it. It's everyone just a little different. But what determines your choice of the plan to do the dietta with? I mean, what does it call to you? Or do you take the advice of a curandero that this is the plant for you, this is the one you need to diet with, or what leads to the choice you make to have this seven day diet?
[00:20:47] Speaker A: It's a combination of both. Having done a few diettas now, when I first started and my first introduction to Dietta, I just completely trusted and left it into the hands of the healers and the team there and their wisdom and also their intuition, just what they sensed. And so I just expressed kind of what my intention was or what was bringing me down to the jungle, why I wanted to be there, what I was there for, what I was facing and addressing, trying to deal with what I was struggling with, things like that, physically, emotionally, psychologically. And so through that, what I shared with them, they recommended to me a particular plant. They actually recommended to me.
It's a species of strangler fig. It's a ficus species.
And I was taking the resin from this vine. It looks like a tree, actually. In time.
As it grows, it completely envelops and creates a net, basically, is what it looks like around a mature tree that's already there. And the vine just encirculates and encapsulates it, and it strangles it out. That's why they're called strangler figs. And so after time, it actually, it looks like it's a giant mature tree, but it's just this web of vines that's basically taken on a form of a trunk following an original tree that was there. And so this particular tree I was working with, usually, in general, a lot of people say that the healers, they recommend you start with leaves, start with small plants, you know, start with, uh, shrubs or, um, yeah, kind of simpler plants. And then you work your way up to, uh, hardwoods, you know, um, more mature trees.
But in this case, they recommended to me to work with this tree. And it was, in particular, it was a lot related to do with, um, with emotional things I was going, going through and just trying to connect with my heart a little bit more. I'm a very logical, intellectual person, and so I can kind of get a little too carried away with sort of following my mind or what my thoughts are telling me and trying to connect more with my emotions and just with my heart.
And so that tree had a lot of affiliation or that buying that plant has a lot of associations with emotional grieving processes that healers. Traditionally, the way that they shared with me about the plant was that they use it for grieving. When there is loss of a partner, when there is a separation in a relationship, or when theres, you know, some sort of heartbreak or dealing with the loss of a loved one, its something that they work with a lot. And its also related with the heart physically. They, theyre shared with me that when people have heart surgery nowadays, its actually kind of a folk remedy that they often recommend to people who have gone through even conventional, you know, um, medical procedures, but it has some properties that they associate, and they believe, um, they've observed that it helps, in particular with matters of, of the heart, whether that's physiologically and physically or.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: I've, I've had some cardiac procedures.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: Oh, really?
[00:23:59] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm looking for something to help. But. But the ficus, I mean, would you say that the ficus is a, is it psychoactive or does it put you. It's not right, but it affects your state of mind to do the diet with this plant?
[00:24:21] Speaker A: Yes. I think it's more on a subtle level with that plant in particular.
I didn't notice anything in particular. Like, wow, I feel really sedated or calm or I feel really agitated or stimulated. I didn't notice any kind of physiological effect.
But some of the dietta plants, yeah, they are, they're psychoactive or psychotropic even. Some of them have their own hallucinogen.
The jungle healers, they work with everything.
Exactly. Everything is potentially a tool, a healing. Um, uh, ally, these plants, have you.
[00:25:04] Speaker B: Done diettas with how many?
[00:25:05] Speaker A: I have done, I've done three d et.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:25:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:10] Speaker B: All right. With a different plant each time with.
[00:25:13] Speaker A: A different plant, and actually each time with, uh, with a different healer as well. Not necessarily conventional. Yeah. Or even recommended. Um, but, yeah, it kind of tying back to your original question. When I went into that first dieta and when I was doing this work, kind of with this medicine and connecting with my heart, I got brought back to some things from my childhood during that experience, that retreat, and that dieta. And I always wanted to study medicine. When I was a young, when I was a young boy, when I was growing up, I had a lot of cancer in my family, especially on my mom's side. I lost many relatives as a young boy from cancer. And so I really wanted to be an ecologist when I was a little kid.
Sorry, an oncologist, I wanted to be a cancer doctor. Yeah, right. And so when I went to, and I started my university, my undergraduate studies in university, I was on a pre med track and I was studying medicine, but I changed to wildlife ecology and became a biologist, actually, in large part because of that Costa Rica semester abroad that I mentioned to you, that really opened my eyes to a different aspect of science that was much more alluring to me. Studying medicine in the university at that time, at least in that setting in that program, was very dry. It was all laboratory book work. You know, I wanted to help people work with people. I wanted to heal, you know, I wanted to help provide healing options for people with cancer. That was my real, deeper intention, and it just, it wasn't working for me. It wasn't speaking to me. I wasn't getting to the root of kind of what was attracting me in university. And so I kind of diverted. I tried natural sciences and exploring biology a little more and went to Costa Rica, and that just really opened my eyes. And so when I went back, I took, I lived several years as a biologist and worked, you know, professionally, kind of getting experience and developing my career a little bit that way. And then when I went to Peru, I was kind of reminded of that. It sort of brought it back to me and kind of brought in and confronted me again life in some way with that intention or with that motivation that I have. And so that reawakened. And that made me think in that moment was like, oh, wow, yeah, this could be a different alternative as well. Like, this is, this is medicine to me. This is healing. This is something that's very beneficial, I think would be good for a lot of people. And so I thought maybe there's some way I can kind of reroute myself and get back a little bit to medicine and healing, but more through a shamanic or, you know, folk medicine, herbalism kind of lens. So, yeah, definitely it brought about that motivation was there, but it quickly, that motivation and that process evolved for me a lot over the years and in time, because I quickly realized it takes a life long training and apprenticeship, and you have to really dedicate yourself to that if you want to truly, truly take on that lifestyle and dedicate yourself. It's not like something you can just, you know, try and give it a whirl and see how it goes. Like the people who really, that I've met who have a strong presence and a capacity to hold space and foster a healing atmosphere and help accompany people and work with the plants, understanding kind of what they're bringing and working with the people, understanding what they need to really dedicate yourself to that, you have to be fully committed.
And I couldn't do that. And so I kind of stepped away, and that transformed for me in time. And I saw it more as a passion and something that I could participate in actively, but not in the sense of kind of holding space, serving medicine, kind of being someone to facilitate those sort of experiences.
[00:29:24] Speaker B: Right, right. So you. Well, you've gone further than many people ever have that getting into these traditions. And it's interesting that you were originally in science out of a, you studied medicine in the scientific context because you wanted to heal people, but it was not satisfying, and you had to take this sort of detour. In some ways, although it wasn't really a detour, it was a path of discovery. And then you discovered, you discovered the plants, and then you kind of, through the plants, came back to medicine.
So you came to understand healing in a much more holistic, apprehensive way than you would have if you had stayed in medical school and become a doctor. I mean, I'm sure you would have been a great doctor because you're a passionate, an intelligent person. But I, you know, I've known lots of doctors, I'm sure you have, too, that they get on this path and then they become disillusioned, you know, because medicine, as it's practiced in, in biomedicine, in conventional medicine, is very difficult to apply these kinds of different, more unconventional remedies, approaches, and it's frowned upon, you know, and many doctors at some point in their career become disillusioned with their experience, and, you know, it's no longer satisfying. Sounds like you escaped that fate and you discovered something much more satisfying. And you continue this work, is that right?
[00:31:27] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
As you mentioned in my introduction, I did go through some experiences that really were very challenging, traumatic, difficult for me to face and to sort of integrate, understand how to deal with them. So my involvement in this kind of work and ceremonies and retreats, different things like this, has evolved a lot and kind of ebbed and flowed through time, but it's still. Absolutely, yeah. I'm very actively participating in a lot of communities and places where this is a very central part of their work, and I'm a big proponent. I'm a believer. I think they're very important medicines. I haven't been working with medicines, participating in ceremonies, consuming medicines for about the last.
Oh, I don't know. It's been about two and a half years, I guess, or three years due to these circumstances when I had psychiatric concerns that came up.
And so since then, I've taken time and kind of stepped back, but I'm still very much involved, supporting, keeping in touch with people. Um, and I have been connecting a lot over the years, um, with people who do sweat lodges or in Nepes, they call them, in Lakota or Temazcal, we call them in, in Mexico, which is another, uh, ancestral, you know, traditional ceremony that has its. Its medicine, its healing properties.
Uh, but you and a lot, typically, in the traditional context, medicines are not consumed in plant, medicines are not consumed in those sweat lodges. And so it's another form of ceremony that I've connected very deeply with and still it brings me to similar.
[00:33:29] Speaker B: So follow these psychotic episodes if you want characterize them that way. Or prolonged experiences of dissociation from reality.
[00:33:45] Speaker A: Right.
[00:33:47] Speaker B: Has that made you feel like you can't work with medicines anymore? Did you see that as a warning that maybe you should not be taking these medicines? Or do you feel like you could go back to it? Do you want to go back to it having, having these experiences? And if youd rather not comment on these things because I know this is very personal, but im just curious, how do you sit with it now having these, not only these tremendous healing experiences under your belt, but also these experiences of how the medicines can completely disrupt a persons sense of self. And, and that's sort of the point when you take these things, but it's when you don't come back or it takes much longer to come back, then that can be alarming.
[00:34:50] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. No, I'm very happy to share about my approach or perspectives on things and how I've processed that because I think it's really important to talk about. I think it's important that we have a lot of different voices and, and, you know, frames of reference and different ways of relating to and understanding these processes and experiences.
I don't personally believe that it was like a warning or I was being punished or told. This is something that's not for me.
I interpret it as, and this is, again, where I'm at now, could evolve.
It just was, I had too much going on. I mean these were, these are complex situations. There's a lot of factors involved.
Yeah, exactly.
And so my experiences, when I did, when I had. Yeah, I mean we can call it a psychotic break. We could call it episode of schizophrenia. You could. I mean, kind of like I think you referenced in your book the Brotherhood of the screaming abyss. Like, was it your experience in La Terrera with your brother? Was that an alien encounter? Was that a shamanic initiation? Was that a psychotic? You know, it's like it kind of depends on the framework, how you interpret it and it can have many different ways of understanding what was experienced and where that came from. But for me, in my experience, and I do relate to you in a lot of ways, in that sense, I viewed it just as I fried my circuit board. I was too stressed, I was involved in too many things. I had too much going on in my personal life. I was just under a lot of stress in my relationships professionally.
And I was not taking enough time to slow down process. The stressors deal with the things that were creating difficulties for me. And so that was just kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back.
You know, if I wouldn't have been doing medicines, I don't know that I would have been brought to that point, that I would have. My psyche would have broken open. So in such a delicate and scary way, because it really did.
I think the medicines did have a role in some ways, but I don't think that they were the culprit or the cause.
I don't think that I have any kind of physiological or neurochemically, any kind of adaptation or unique qualities or physiology that makes me more predisposed to something like that, or more vulnerable under the influence of those substances to have something like this occurring. I think it just was, I pushed things to the limits and I was not cautious, and I just over. I overloaded myself.
[00:37:56] Speaker B: Yeah, so it pushed me.
[00:37:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it pushed me past my breaking point.
[00:37:59] Speaker B: It sounds like it happened at a time when many stressors were impacting on your life and, you know, and you were dealing with that, then maybe that was not the appropriate time to take the medicines. And then they, you know, so they kind of pushed you past your limits and it was a response.
I experienced something similar. You know, when we went to La Terra, you know, certain sense, I mean, just going to La Tra was a very stressful thing.
I was 20 years old. I knew nothing about anything. And my brother was, you know, running this show and was. And he knew even, you know, he didn't know very much either. None of us did. You know, we were. We were at play in the fields of the Lord. Literally didn't really know what was going down. But, but the. But, you know, when we got to La Terra, it was like something, we knew that something big was going to happen and. And the universe obliged and something big did happen. And you're right. I mean, there are elements of alien abduction and shamanic initiation and psychosis all wrapped together. They were elements of all of these things. And they can't be boiled down to any one of these things. These are just powerful life transforming experiences. One, but you dealt with it, you recovered. And one of the things I wanted to ask you about when you had a couple of these episodes, and in one case, you were pretty much under the care of conventional psychotherapists or psychologists. In the other case, you were under the care of shamans community, which was a better path to get yourself back, to be the person you are, which was the most healing. Which was most effective, the shamanic approach or the psychological approach?
[00:40:15] Speaker A: Yes, the shamanic approach definitely was much more effective, much more elegant, much more intuitive, much more harmonious with what I was experiencing and processing. Even though it's from a cultural context and framework that's completely foreign to me. I don't come from the jungle or an indigenous setting.
I have mostly german ancestors, and I grew up in the midwest, is very out of my element. But it's still. I think there is something to the shamanic approach that's very universal. It's of this earth.
It's. It comes from people. Those are universal things. And so I think there's access for anyone through the shamanic approach. It takes someone who can speak your language or kind of relate to things, give you, you know, ways of relating to things that are. That make sense to you. But it. For me, it was much more effective.
The.
The times when I was in. I will say this, though, there's a caveat, because when I was admitted into, you know, I was institutionalized basically into a psychiatric ward. I was treated as a drug addict. So I was treated as if I had a substance abuse problem that I was addicted to. Psychedelic substances couldn't really just. I mean, in their framework in this was, you know, in. In mental hospitals in Minnesota at the time. And so they don't have any awareness of ayahuasca and Wilka and Wachuma and those things. They don't differentiate in terms of categories and the substances between something like PCP or crack cocaine and ayahuasca. And so I was treated as if I had a substance abuse issue.
And it was.
It was very detrimental for me. It actually set me back a lot. It created a lot more problems for me than it did help me address kind of what was at the root of where this situation was coming from. I was dissociated from reality. I was not in my body completely. I don't know how you want to express that, but it was sort of like I was in a blackout phase. There was nothing.
Memories weren't registering. I was not coherent. I was very unlike myself, very violent and combative, disruptive. Just a real pain in the ass, I'm sure, to be around. Very difficult to deal with, which is why I was admitted in the first place, because I just was out of control.
But when I was with. I was with Shipibo healers. So people who come from that tradition, I was with two brothers who I have a personal relationship with. I knew them already. And so I had trust and there was confidence there and familiarity with them. They knew me.
But again, like I say, they're coming from a whole different world and cosmovision reality framework than I am. Their consciousness was developed in a very different way than me. But still, how they were approaching me and the situation that the.
The predicament I had gotten myself into, um, resonated a lot more, made a lot more sense to me of, hey, this is a person who's going through a crisis. It's kind of like, uh, I guess you could call it a, um, a rite of passage or like a, you know, just a big transition in their life. And I wasn't able to process and understand how to approach that situation. And because of that, I kind of dissociated through my actions and through ceremonial use of plants, through the stresses and things that I was involved in. And all those different factors brought me to that place.
But when I was hospitalized and in mental hospital, the way that they saw it was, this person is abusing substances, and they have an addiction problem, and they're a drug addict. And so for me to understand what to do with this, it's the same situation. But one perspective is, okay, this person's going through a crisis and a big transition, and they need to be supported and learn how to process things. And the other one was, okay, this person is.
Doesn't have their dose, you know, hasn't gotten their daily dose, and so they're itching to, you know, deal with that. And it didn't get back to the root cause at all of seeing me as a person and dealing with what is the deeper context here. You know, on that level, I'm just.
[00:45:13] Speaker B: Gobsmacked in some ways. I mean, the. The biomedical environment that you were subjected to is so totally inappropriate, and if they thought it was a drug abuse problem and you're taking psychedelics, they completely. They're completely ignorant about psychedelics. I mean, we know that psychedelics are not addicting. That's absurd. People don't get addicted to psychedelics, and they're so they look at it from that framework, you know, which is completely inappropriate. And I'm. And I'm appalled at how ignorant in this day and age the therapist could be. I mean, hopefully, now that psychedelics are becoming accepted more for therapeutic use, people like this are getting educated. I mean, I doubt if people are, but there are certainly people in the psychiatric profession that know how to use psychedelics and understand the, you know, that the right approach is effectively the shamanic approach, whether you call it not. There needs to be an appropriate set and setting for these experiences to happen. And the therapist needs to understand where the patient, if you want to use that word, is coming from. And it helps if they have their own experiences of psychedelics, and then they can understand that. I mean, the situation you were in in the clinic in Minnesota, I'm surprised. It just sounds like it was very harmful, basically, and not a healing environment at all. I mean, you covered, but it had little to do with anything they did for you. You recovered yourself, you know, you found your center and reconstituted yourself.
[00:47:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I. That's. That's what the feeling that I'm left with as well. I, um. I mean, I appreciate their support and what they were trying to do. I think they're very well intentioned, but just very misinformed. But it's also. It's very surprising to me as well. Dennis. I was really shocked at how ignorant they were, just completely unaware. It's like, it's not that they didn't know the ins and outs of ayahuasca. They were not just completely unaware of what ayahuasca was.
[00:47:46] Speaker B: It was just another drug. I mean, they just classified him with heroin and PCp and all of these things they don't understand exactly about. Well, I'm surprised that you were able to escape that and effectively heal yourself, because that's what you do. And it raises the question if shamanic approaches could be integrated into psychiatry for situations like this, psychiatry could be much more effective than it is now. As it is, it's kind of a crapshoot, especially if the working from that perspective, I mean, they certainly need to educate themselves about, you know, there. There are different approaches to it, and it could be more effective. So.
But now you.
I mean, you're. You're completely healed. You're. You're back together. You're obviously totally.
I don't know. I wouldn't say normal.
No, none of us are normal. Beyond the portal too many times that a functional person, you know, I mean, you know, you're oriented to place and time, and you. I mean, you're certainly not psychotic at this point. And you've been through all this. Do you feel any calling to take psychedelics again? Or is it just when the opportunity presents itself, if it seems appropriate? Or. Or is it like, no, I'm not going there again. How do you feel about that?
[00:49:36] Speaker A: I feel for the time being, no, no, I'm not going there again, but I will say I am. Maintain openness. I think there's a possibility that at some point down the road, perhaps maybe decades, it might be many, many years, but there's a possibility where it might speak to me again or where there could be some intention or a sense of place for that in my life. But I don't feel any calling as it stands now. And I think that'll be the case for many years. Right now, I'm a lot more tuned into my well being, my health now in a holistic kind of sense, than I was before. I think I was a little bit kind of cavalier or blase in some ways about my mental health before which I'm really grateful for those experiences, how they brought more awareness to that for me, the necessity of taking care of my mental health, but also just emotionally, psychologically, a lot of things that I maybe wouldn't deal with so proactively or would kind of put on the back burner become much more apparent. I need to deal with things as they come up and take care of my health in a very well rounded and holistic approach. Mind, body, soul, spirit, you know, emotions and my family, my partner, my work, all the different elements of my life. And so I just think for now, it's good to really be rooted in that. You know, I work with a psychiatrist who is trained as an infectious disease specialist. She's a medical doctor, but she lived several years in India and studied ayurvedic medicine and their approach to psychiatry through ayurvedic lens as well as in Iquitos. She lived in the jungle in Peru for a few years and studied with curanderos and the folk medicine there in the jungle and learning also how they deal with mental health and with psychological conditions.
And so she has been accompanying me and helping me and giving me some support.
And the framework that she brings through western medicine and also through ayurvedic medicine and through jungle modalities has really reinforced that to me, of stress is the most crucial thing.
If you eat really well and get good sleep and take care of all the other little things, but you're really stressed, all your systems are just going to go haywire regardless, doesn't matter how well you're taking care of yourself. So that's a big thing that I've kind of become much more attuned to and just noticing, yeah, sometimes I get really stressed and I need to take extra time to decompress. You know, we're not going to live stress free lives. It's. We have to learn, I think it seems we have to learn how to process our stress deal with our stress, find outlets, you know, find ways to.
Yeah. To manage our stress.
[00:52:41] Speaker B: It sounds like this person had everything you need. I mean, that's the. That's the therapist you should have had.
[00:52:49] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:52:50] Speaker B: She understands jungle medicine. She understands ayurveda, and she understands conventional psychiatry as well. How did you discover this person? It sounds like that was a real find. And in some ways, that person was a real. Was a healer for you.
[00:53:08] Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah. This person, her name is Valeria.
I can't even pronounce her last name, to be honest. I'm sorry, Valeria, she has a polish last name. I think it's Winnick Zuck.
But I. So I met Valeria. I met her through my partner, Shani, who, you know, when we were living in Mexico, and I had a psychotic episode come up when I was there, and Shani was taking care of me, helping support me, helping take, you know, look after me. While this was happening, she reached out to her friends and her network to see if there was anybody through our communities, through our connections, who had some knowledge, some tools, some way that they could contribute or help provide support for Shani, give her some feedback and some more tools to be able to address the situation and through our friends. Actually, my partner, Shani, had a friend who worked with us, with this psychiatrist, with this particular MD. And so she recommended her to me. And actually, what happened was she gave Shani advice, was kind of consulting her, and kind of giving her some recommendations of. Because at that time, I wasn't going to the bathroom at all. I wasn't sleeping, I wasn't eating.
And so she was trying to really help Shani to get me to just get back to normal biological functions of sleeping and eating and elimination.
And so that's how she first kind of got involved in my life and the situation that I was in dealing with this psychotic episode. And when I processed things and got out of the hot, I was hospitalized after this situation, when I got back from the hospital and was processing things, I ended up reaching out to Valeria and getting a hold of her and asking her to come in for some consultations and spend some time with her.
And that was really valuable for me. Her feedback, and like you said, her perspective, having the ayurvedic, the jungle medicine, and the western allopathic model.
[00:55:26] Speaker B: Is it in Minnesota or.
[00:55:28] Speaker A: She actually. No, she's argentinian.
[00:55:31] Speaker B: Okay. She is there.
[00:55:33] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:55:34] Speaker B: Well, that's good. It sounds like we were very fortunate to make that connection, and Shani made it for you. And, you know, I've met Shani. She's a wonderful person.
I'm sure you are grateful every day that she's looking after you and that your partners, because she just has a wonderful energy about her and seemed like a very caring and nurturing person. And we all need that, right? Yeah, we need a good partner, and so that's a wonderful thing. I'm so glad that you guys are still together and sharing your life's journey together.
I think it's great. Yeah.
[00:56:25] Speaker A: Thanks, Dennis.
[00:56:26] Speaker B: Appreciate that you've been so in the process of working with these different communities and so on and spending time with these communities. A lot of them have.
They're basically offering retreats and so on for tourists.
A lot of it's about that, or not necessarily.
[00:56:49] Speaker A: No, not necessarily. I wouldn't necessarily describe it as that. There is that element of it. Um, but more than that, I would say it's aimed for people who have a particular intention or motivation. Um, not necessarily just tourism. It's more designed for people who want to incorporate, um, those. The medicines or ceremonies kind of into their. Into their lifestyle. Um, whether that's something more. Yeah. Like, just as far as their own personal practice or whether that's something that they want to get more involved in, actively working.
[00:57:27] Speaker B: I don't mean tourists necessarily, pigeonly. These are. These are serious seekers, right? People that are really, for some spiritual something, satisfied spiritually. But generally, they're outside the community, or the communities are inviting, creating spaces and opportunities for people to come and explore these plant medicines, which is not. I mean, effectively, they're tourists, but they're serious tourists. They're not the way you normally think of a tourist, as someone who is separated from the culture, either the camera lens or they're not really part of it. They're observing it. These are people who want the immersive experience and actually to experience the life and culture of these folks. And these communities do that.
[00:58:32] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. No, that's a good description. I mean, in that sense, yeah, there are people coming from outside of the community and the culture there. They're tourists in that sense. But, yeah, just as you say, people who have a little bit more. Yeah, they want more active participation or it's not just, okay, let's go on a trip and see, you know, what kind of things we can get up to and do the sightseeing. You know, it's not that kind of like eco tourism.
[00:58:56] Speaker B: Right.
[00:58:57] Speaker A: But because there is. There is that element I'm sure you've seen over the years, especially nowadays, how it's changed. There is ayahuasca tourism. There are people who go down just, you know, they just want to experience it, and they go down just to drink the medicine and it's like a little getaway.
And that's great. I think that's a good thing that some people can do that. I think it's delicate. It has to be done in a good way. There's a lot of issues that can become very sensitive in that process with the local people and the groups that are receiving tourism from that nature and the financial and economic, socio political implications.
But when it's done right, I think it is in a lot of places. I think the intention there is good. Um, I think those, you know, ayahuasca tourism opportunities have a purpose, and some people get positive benefit out of them. But I mean, if it's too accessible, if it's too. Yeah, I don't know, it. It's kind of a slippery slope for me. I don't think it's for everyone.
[01:00:00] Speaker B: I, you know, there are many moving parts Tora. There are lots of things about it that are beneficial. I've seen many people and the retreats that I've organized, you know, I mean, it's changed their lives. You know, it really has been beneficial. Not everyone. I mean, there's no, you know, people come down, they seek these experiences, there no guarantee. There's no guarantee that they're going to, you know, have their lives changed a profound way? Probably most of them don't, but some do, you know, and they really return to their previous lives, or perhaps they changed their previous lives in important ways. So there's definitely benefits for the people that seek these things out. And I guess the trick is to make sure that the community also benefits so that it's a reciprocal thing, you know, and it's tricky. It's a tricky area. I don't condemn ayahuasca tourism or organizing retreats for people to have these experiences because I think they're important.
And I'm guilty. I've helped organize these things, but I don't feel guilt for it.
I feel that at the time, I knew less about it than I know now. That doesn't mean I wouldn't necessarily still have ayahuasca retreats. I mean, we have to achieve a balance.
It's a complex issue. But you don't feel that ayahuasca tourism, if you want to put it that way, is destroying the culture or destroying the plants or is a threat to these things, or do you?
[01:02:00] Speaker A: No, I don't personally view it that way.
I understand, yeah, people, I certainly have heard people express that perspective, and I understand where they're coming from.
I think.
Well, from the point of view of ecology and biology and conservation on that side, I don't think there's a risk to ayahuasca, the vine, as a species, just because we have enough of the Amazon conserved, and that's in protected conditions, that I believe that species will persist as long as there is the open space and the intact forest there for it to continue to thrive. I don't think we can go in and harvest every.
I do think we need to have more cultivation of the medicine, of the plants of Ayahuasca and Chakruna, that we don't have to go in and harvest as much from the jungle. That would be obviously ideal, but I don't think we're a risk to the species banisteriopsis copy of becoming endangered or in risk of its conservation status. That's just my personal belief. I do think, though, that culturally, we're creating some havoc or some difficulties for a lot of the indigenous groups who use that medicine traditionally, just in that the ancestral, the ancient, the traditional format and framework of how those medicines were used in those communities is changing. It has completely transformed where the shaman, the Curandero, was the one who would drink the medicine, and the person who came for healing was a part of their community, was a part of their tribe, or even their family, and they did not consume the medicine. They came with their predicament or their situation that they had to address. And the healer consumed the medicine and kind of tuned in to, you know, to enact or participate in the healing in some way for that person. And they just received the healing. They didn't consume the medicine, which obviously, I'm sure you know a lot about this, these, uh, these facets of it, but nowadays, it's like, you know, a westerner coming from Pennsylvania or La or France or wherever, coming to the jungle for them to just go and approach a healer who they don't even know and sit there and trust that the healer is going to be able to, you know, it's like it, um. I think it's created some kind of, uh, some restrictions or some like, bottlenecking where it's forced a lot of the cultures to just change their approach to working with the medicines to try and be more inclusive or more inviting and more receptive to other cultures, because financially, it's very.
There's a lot of prosperity that becomes possible there through receiving people from other countries to come and do healing sessions. But then if they're kind of catering how they're doing their healing to what the other, what people from outside are looking for, I think there is a little bit of risk culture. It's sort of like when, when traditional people, their elders don't have. Young people are interested in the traditions, and the traditions get lost because the young people are not following through with that, don't have the interest, and the elders don't have someone to pass it on to. I think that's a little bit of kind of what's happening here. I think there are some really powerful tools and technologies and modalities that these jungle healers were tuning into for many, many generations, that now I think maybe they're losing a little bit of the transmission. It's not getting to the young people because the young people who are called to a shamanic path have different intentions. They have a different framework. They're approaching the medicine from that's not really in alignment with the ancestral, you know, back generations, where that medicine, how that medicine was coming to the tribe, to the healers, what its place was, how it was incorporated into their lifestyle.
And so I think now it's sort of becoming commercialized, becoming a commodity and that I think, yeah, on a cultural level, like, anthropologically, I think there's some risk there, but just from biologically, in terms of conservation, it's delicate. We have to be cultivating more and not harvesting as much. But I'm not worried about maybe with peyote or something like that, it's a little different. There's more susceptibility and vulnerability, but peyote.
[01:06:52] Speaker B: Is much harder to make sustainable. But you're right, the traditions will change, and they'll change in response to the market. Basically, tourists have expectations they're not going to come to Peru to watch somebody drink ayahuasca.
That's not what they're there for. I don't think that it necessarily corrupts the tradition to say, to offer the medicine to people, because it does a tremendous, a lot of good. There's no doubt that it changes the traditions. And perhaps 1 may hope that in the face of all these changes, these younger people who are in the community, who might not be interested at all, maybe theyll discover an interest because theres a monetary aspect, but then theyll rediscover that. Hey, granddad over in the corner mumbling to himself. He actually knew stuff, you know, and knows stuff. And some people will perhaps wake up to the fact that they have a lot to learn and they can learn and they can be.
But then they also live in a modern world. You know, they all have iPhones and access to the Internet and all of these things. So maybe this new generation can be the interface between the global culture and these traditional cultures. And if theyre sort of educated or if they wake up to the fact that they can be the stewards of this culture and the stewards of this wisdom without losing it, without letting it be corrupted, but they have to be very clear about it. And its tricky. Its tricky for any of us to be clear about these sorts of things, but there are some that do understand it. So I'm hopeful.
I don't think anyone knows. The Amazon, like every place, is changing radically socially and environmentally. And all of these things. Who knows where this is going to be in 50 years?
Or, I mean, who knows where the Amazon is going to be in 50 years?
All sorts of factors that impact it. But I'm happy that these traditions exist and I hope they continue to exist because numerous reasons. They do help heal people, but they also provide, because of the economic impact that they have, they provide an incentive to preserve the community, preserve the habitats where the plants are, and help sustain the health of these traditions.
And as a person whos worked in ecology and ecological stewardship and that sort of thing, that has to be a good thing from your perspective.
I wish there were more people like you.
You have 1ft in each of the cultures and you can be an important bridge and spokesman for, for bringing these cultures together.
[01:10:26] Speaker A: Yeah, well I appreciate you expressing that. And yeah, I think those are. There's a lot of good points you brought up. I would certainly agree. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. I just think from, yeah, the cultural standpoint, there's change. You know, things are evolving and changing and that's how it goes. I think the people who, there still will be people who are relatively isolated and uncontacted and they'll continue with their traditions the same way. But you're right, I think it's good that some of the young people maybe see other sides of things, have other interests, other things that draw them towards it, and perhaps that will reveal, allow them to engage with their culture, their traditions, their elders, in a way that will open things up, that they can participate more actively, perhaps, maybe where there wasn't as much motivation for them before, but now that they see things and how westerners or people from outside of their culture are interested in those traditions, maybe that will spark a little bit of inspiration for them. So you're right. I think that's a good thing as well.
But it's all evolution. It's all changing and growing and adapting. And we need as much adaptability and as much capacity to learn on the fly, to learn from our mistakes.
Yeah. Be flexible, be open minded.
And I think these tools and these, these modalities, these resources are really valuable for us. They're really important. They seem to.
[01:11:53] Speaker B: Right.
[01:11:53] Speaker A: Pretty generally speaking for most people, elicit a little bit more consciousness ecologically, socially, taking care of one or one another, taking care of ourselves, taking care of our planet a little better.
So, yeah, I definitely do appreciate that.
[01:12:10] Speaker B: I like what you wrote in that piece you shared with me that we're going to post. You talked about coevolution a lot. And the word, one word you didn't use, but I think it's appropriate in this context is symbiosis. That's a word that I like, too. But coevolution and symbiosis are really two sides of the same coin.
[01:12:35] Speaker A: Sure.
[01:12:35] Speaker B: And what we're involved with here is with these plant medicines have been for thousands of years, is the coevolution of these meat.
We are symbiotic partners with plants like ayahuasca and mushrooms and these things we learn from them. They provide benefits for us and hopefully they teach us to be a little wiser and better stewards of the environment, kinder to each other, kinder to the environment, all of these values that we aspire to plan. Teachers are catalysts for this. So in that sense, they're co evolutionary catalysts for our learning. I mean, they don't call them plant teachers for nothing.
[01:13:28] Speaker A: Right.
[01:13:29] Speaker B: You know, you learn from them. So you've been in it, you've come to this honestly and have learned from your experiences, and now you're in a position to share that with others.
[01:13:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think actually touching back on something that you mentioned when I was sharing a little bit about my experiences in mental institutions and my process, they're dealing with psychosis through that framework is something that I'm kind of inspired. I don't know how this will play out, if it will play out, but I think it would be good for people like myself or people in situations or people who have gone through situations like that to go back and kind of check in with the institutions, with the. And maybe you can't, you know, directly go and have a conversation with the people who are assigned to your case. You know, for me in particular, but to be a part of that dialogue and that process to say, hey, there's other things in, you know, western psychiatry that we can look at or approach or have other frameworks or perspectives that would help inform and create better models to be able to help people, engage with people, support people through these healing process, through these difficult experiences. Um, and that's something that motivates me. I. Because I. I can speak the language a little bit through a scientific lens and through a medical lens, I think they would be receptive and understand kind of where I'm coming from, but also bringing that, uh, perspective and that familiarity, the knowledge, um, that I have, the experiences I have with the traditional healers and with other modalities, um, just to bring that more into the fold. I think that's something that would be good nowadays for our western medicine models to have some kind of reevaluation and just kind of see, okay, maybe there are other things that we can incorporate into our field that would make it more effective, more compassionate, more. Yeah, just a better.
[01:15:36] Speaker B: I totally agree. I think. I mean, there, I think we need.
[01:15:40] Speaker A: People like you to be honest as well, because you're very well respected and you've seen kind of many sides of the situation as well. And your voice, too, I think, would. Would be very helpful and also a real breath of fresh air to help us. Yeah. Figure out better ways to just provide.
[01:15:56] Speaker B: Mental health, why we're doing this podcast and things like this. But I totally hear what you're saying. I mean, within the biomedical community, there are physicians that are open to this, that understand this, that understand a bit about these traditions and respect them. And the psychedelics becoming more integrated into medicine in some ways, they are forcing these realizations into medicines, whether we like it or not. And sometimes the approach is totally clinical.
It's not therapeutic if it's not in a hospital, if it's not in the clinical situation. And that's just a total misunderstanding of how these things can properly be used. You know, they're much more effective if used outside.
You know, they're not. I mean, we think of medicines as something that we give to people who are sick.
[01:17:03] Speaker A: Right.
[01:17:04] Speaker B: You know, these are not necessarily given to people who are sick. They are given to people who are well to make them better, you know, better, wiser humans perhaps, perhaps to resolve some. Some issues that they may have, but they're not necessarily, you know, seen in the context, you know, and then the idea that they must, you must have some mental or other deficiency in order to benefit from this. They benefit many people. You don't have to be deficient to become a better human. These are learning tools. Basically, they're plant teachers. And Lord knows we have a lot to learn from, so we just have to keep on doing that and keep doing what you're doing if it's satisfying and seems to be so.
[01:18:02] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yep. Just keep, keep grinding away.
[01:18:06] Speaker B: Keep.
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective on all this.
[01:18:13] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[01:18:14] Speaker B: Really appreciate it.
[01:18:15] Speaker A: I appreciate you, Dennis, thanks for taking time for me.
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