Episode Transcript
[00:00:13] Speaker A: Welcome to Brainforest Cafe with Dennis McKenna.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: By the time Anneliese Schinzinger was seven years old, she had lived in Istanbul for five years and traveled around the world. By the age of 20, she had lived in England and Spain and had a passion for learning languages and experiencing diverse cultures.
This led her to go to Brazil to study its culture and history, a time which profoundly influenced the rest of her life. Her professional careers have ranged from Runway model to director of HR at a corporation, author and death Doula for 30 years.
Her new book, Ayahuasca, opening to the mysteries, shares these exciting, often wondrous and sometimes awful experiences from her life. In 1977, she drank ayahuasca for the first time with a brazilian spiritual group, the UDV, the Unyal de Vegital.
She was a member for 18 years and a primary translator. Her story of rituals, the strength of community and the years of deepening awareness portrays a tradition of mystery with ancient roots and also a very modern drama involving stark and honest revelation.
The story shows the role of ayahuasca, opening at Elise to dimensions beyond this realm.
Those experiences prompted a significant change in the trajectory of her life, the healing of old wounds and deeper happiness. In her everyday life, Anneliese adventured with researchers involved in ethnobotany and learned firsthand the personal, cultural and scientific significance of ayahuasca in human development.
Her work has contributed beautiful knowledge and personal experience to the conscious exploration of the sacred rainforest brew Anneliese has been writing for the last 30 years. She has written articles and presented her knowledge at conferences dedicated to studying ayahuasca. Her first book, the Art and Science of Caregiving Stories of inspiring elders with an end of Life guidebook, was published in 2019.
With her retirement as a death doula in 2023, she was able to dedicate time to finishing her second book, opening to the Mysteries, which is being released in summer of 2024.
Anneliese, welcome to the Brain Forest Cafe.
[00:03:11] Speaker A: Thank you. Dennis, good to be here.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: So good to see you, as always. It's great. Likewise, thank you for taking time to do this.
I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long time.
It's a real pleasure to me to be able to sit with you for an hour or so and reminisce on our time together and what we've done together and your life and your life has been very much tied to ayahuasca in a non traditional way, and it's a fascinating story. You've lived a long and interesting life. Annelise and I should perhaps clarify for our listeners that we first got to know each other back in 1991, I think, when I came to Brazil for the first time and to a conference that was hosted by the UDV. You'd been with them for several years. And at that conference we cooked up a project to do a biomedical investigation of ayahuasca at the behested invitation of the UDV. So when we returned two years later, myself, Charlie Grove, Chase Calloway, were the part of the scientific team. You were tapped to be the liaison to the UDV and our translator and basically our just general resource and guide there.
And we got to know you very well. And it was a beautiful relationship and a beautiful project. So thank you for that. We've kept in touch over the years, and here we are.
[00:04:55] Speaker A: Here we are.
[00:04:58] Speaker B: Do you have any reflections on that time or anything that you'd like to share in terms of looking back that far? I know it's many decades ago now, but it's still fresh in my mind.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: The first time when I met you, you shared your experience right after the session, the unity session, which was your first session with the UDB, I believe you shared your experience with photosynthesis, and that was so profound, and I just loved hearing it and knew that your background as a scientist facilitated that understanding of what was happening in the expanded state.
[00:05:45] Speaker B: That was one of my most profound experiences. You're right, and that's the first time that I ever drank with the UDV. And it was an incredible experience at the time. And what I look back on is one of the top five of my ayahuasca experiences, because, as you say, my background was as a plant chemist and a plant physiologist. Not exactly a physiologist, but I understood the biochemistry of photosynthesis from a very abstract perspective. I knew how it worked. But to be immersed in it and actually experience it as a participant in this incredibly miraculous process was so moving to me. I mean, my role in this virtual reality dream I entered was as a water molecule. I was a conscious water molecule going through this process. And of course, the water molecule is what is sacrificed in photosynthesis.
Photosynthesis ionizes water to get chemical energy to reduce carbon. We don't need to go into the details, but it was really interesting to me as I was going through this process to then know what was coming and then be totally annihilated, smash to smithereens on the altar, photosynthesis, literally with lightning bolts.
But anyway, enough of that. This is not about my experiences. This is more about your experiences.
So tell me, Anneliese, you got into languages. You got to Brazil because you were interested in languages.
And you're inclined towards spirituality and self discovery, I think, for many years. And. And Ayahuasca and your alliance with the UDV. Kind of opened that path to you. Which was meaningful. And continues to be meaningful. Even though you're not with the UDV anymore. Can you explain a little bit how you got into this. And what that path has been for you?
[00:08:06] Speaker A: I was a student at the University of Sao Paulo. One of the largest and most respected universities in South America.
And I had a fellow classmate in geography class I was taking. And she invited me to spend some time with her and her husband and her daughter.
Her stepson had just returned from six months with Krishnamurti in India.
Excuse me. Krishnamurti is from India. He had gone to Switzerland. Krishnamuchi was spending time teaching.
So he was dressed in indian clothes. And he told me there was a tea that would be good for me.
It was at lunch Sunday afternoon. We were lounging by the pool at his father's estate. And I said, well, can you tell me more about this tea?
And he pretended as if he didn't hear me. Later that evening, when it was just the two of us, he said, I'll take you next week to someone who can tell you about the tea.
So we did. And the person whose office he took me to was a real estate agent. Had his own agency. On a very busy street in Sao Paulo. And I asked him, can you tell me about the tea? I was so curious, because Peter had told me that it would be good for me. And I believed him. And I was at a place in my life. When I needed to make an important decision. About whether to return to the states or stay in Brazil. I'd met someone. I'd fallen in love. And I wanted to give the relationship a chance. But I also knew the importance of continuing with my studies.
So Elio was his name.
Who was the leader of the UDV. So, Paulo. At the time, he didn't answer my question. He said, well, tell me about yourself first. What's happening in your life? And I told him. I gave him a brief summary. And then he switched the conversation over to Peter, who had just returned from Switzerland. And the rest of the conversation was about that. When we were leaving, Elio said, anytime you want to come back and speak to me, please feel free. The next week, I was at his door, knocking.
He invited me in. We spoke for 15 minutes. And he said, do you want to drink the tea? And I still didn't know anything about it. I didn't know it was psychoactive. I didn't go that far. In my imagination. This was 77.
I just knew it would be good for me. I trusted that. And he said yes now. And I checked inside, and the answer was a big yes.
So he told his secretary he was leaving. He closed his briefcase. It was about 03:00 we got in his car, and we headed out.
Probably an hour, maybe even an hour and a half through traffic in Sao Paulo. When we arrived at his house, he introduced me to his wife, which was great. I felt a lot more at ease meeting her. And then he led me up to his study in an adjacent building and gave me the tea for the first time. And when he poured it from a large pitcher in the refrigerator in his own office, private office space, two chairs, a bathroom, kitchen.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: So very untypical. Your first experience with the UDV was not typical. It was usually one on one another, large group in a temple. That's how they do it, right?
[00:11:57] Speaker A: Yeah. It was a real privilege.
[00:11:59] Speaker B: So that was a special gift to you?
[00:12:02] Speaker A: It was, yeah. My knowledge of Portuguese. I spoke Spanish fluently, and my Portuguese was pretty good, but he didn't speak a word of English.
But the feeling state, you understand that with the tea, with ayahuasca, being able to understand things beyond the cognitive mind, just receiving, knowing. So I had a beautiful, beautiful experience, and I decided to stay in Brazil. I realized this is. I need to know more about this. I wanted to stay because of the man who I had met, who later became my husband.
And, yeah, ayahuasca was foundational to my life.
[00:12:50] Speaker B: So that was an inflection. Life, in your life, in your life's trajectory. You made the decision to stay in Brazil, and you made the decision to become more involved with the UDV and the tea and its. Its lessons.
And personally as well, you had personal relationships kind of related to that.
[00:13:18] Speaker A: I was a very dedicated member. It was beneficial in my life.
I appreciated the people I was getting to know. I became friends, some of whom are still friends to this day, some who have left the UDV, some who are still in the UDV, those strong bonds that are forged when we're drinking the medicine together, when we're drinking ayahuasca together and having. Often having a hard time and just knowing we're all in the same boat. We've all been through. We're there because we want to learn. We want to grow spiritually, personally. There's so much to learn in life. And it's like a springboard. The UDV, with the structure, served as a springboard to reach a higher state of consciousness.
And in the case of being 75 people, 100, 500 people, it's a field of consciousness. The 500 is very rare. That's just with conferences and things. But at the beginning, it was just a handful of people drinking the tea, sometimes in nature, and then increasingly grew. I was the 35th member of the UDV in Sao Paulo.
[00:14:36] Speaker B: Wow. So you got in on the ground floor, so to speak.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:42] Speaker B: Do you have any idea how many members there are in Brazil of the UDP?
[00:14:49] Speaker A: The last count I heard was close to 25,000.
There was a situation recently where some members left, definitely over 21 worldwide.
[00:15:01] Speaker B: Okay. And I think when I aim, when we participated in the biomedical study, there were about 10,000, only 10,000. And then I was impressed by.
Among the things we did in preparation for that study is we did it, you know, which you might explain what a preparo is, but I was thinking the UDV had to produce.
They did this preparation of the tea on a semi industrial scale, basically, and they had to produce enough tea to serve 10,000 people every two weeks.
That's a lot of tea.
[00:15:48] Speaker A: That's many different nucleos. Many different centers were preparing tea for their group.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:56] Speaker A: There were smaller groups called distributions that didn't meet the qualifications yet to be considered a nucleo tea was given to them also.
These are recessions going on all over Brazil.
At the time, it was 10,000.
[00:16:16] Speaker B: And currently, and at the time that you joined the UDV, it was sort of in a gray area. Legally. There was consideration that it was maybe a menace to public health or whatever. And I remember one of the reasons the maestres wanted to do this biomedical study was partly in response to that, to demonstrate to the authorities that this was not only not a menace to public health, but a positive benefit to people's health.
That was kind of the sub agenda behind doing this scientific research. And they felt, and correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, but I think there was a consensus among the maestres at the higher level that having some outside investigators, Americans, Europeans and so on, involved in this was a good move because it gave the study a measure of independence, or at least the appearance of independence. Would you say that's true?
[00:17:27] Speaker A: Yes, I agree with that.
[00:17:30] Speaker B: And that study, scientifically, was a lab mark in the study of ayahuasca, because there had never been anything like it, you know, at least as far as I know, there'd been no, there'd been studies of the chemistry, there'd been a little bit of study of the. Of the indigenous use, but very minimal stuff. You know, it was known to a few anthropologists, a few botanists and. And so on. It was not a big thing. So the fact that we were able to carry out this study and then publish over the next decade about eight peer reviewed scientific papers in respect to journals that kind of raised its visibility to the world, you know, and, you know, it made a difference.
[00:18:23] Speaker A: It made a big difference. Yeah, it made a big difference to the groups in Brazil, the Santo Daimi, the bechetao Barquinho, because they were being. They were under observation for the first ten years. It was okay. There was nothing. Nothing happening. And then the authorities caught wind and there was a session in Sao Paulo that I participated in. I had returned to live in Brazil from 86 to 87, and four members of the kungfing attended.
This was like the narcotics board, Brazilian Federal Narcotics Board, examining this subs.
[00:19:08] Speaker B: Kind of like the DEA in the state.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: You invite the DEA to your psychedelic drug party.
Must have been very open minded people.
[00:19:20] Speaker A: Well, yes, I must. I agree with that. I spoke to some of them afterwards. There were four, and I spoke to two of them afterwards. And they had very positive experiences. They shared what they had experienced and how helpful it was and that personal experience and also observing the orderliness, the respect, the integrity of members.
It was such a positive impression of the UDV. And they visited the Santo Daimi and other groups and they allowed the tea to be used in religious context.
That was their decision.
So that was a landmark decision. Yeah. And then that part was in 86. 87.
[00:20:14] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:14] Speaker A: And you came along and you're the one who had the idea and wrote the protocol. Right. Wrote the request for the study after the UDV approached you, because then the UDV, Santo Daimyo, Borkinia being scrutinized. Right. Because of concern about the effect on humans.
[00:20:37] Speaker B: And they wanted to put some data, some actual data on it, which we successfully were able to do.
Yes, that. And it's not.
It's not typical for the UDV to do this. I mean, this was a special thing because later, I mean, they. In some ways, they're not friendly to science. You know, maybe this has changed over time, but it was sort of like, well, this is sacred medicine. It's not a drug. We don't want to be studied like it's just another drug. And they were clear about that.
We were saying, well, yeah, we understand that, but it is a medicine that's got activity on the body, and we can study this. That's not disrespectful. I think our message was establishing curiosity and putting facts in place about what it actually did was not disrespectful to the medicine, you know?
[00:21:44] Speaker A: Oh, no, I agree.
[00:21:46] Speaker B: What happened from that study in 93, then, had a great influence in later on when a branch of the UDV was opened in Santa Fe, and I think in 96, did they open the Santa Fe chapter of the UDV?
[00:22:12] Speaker A: That sounds right.
[00:22:14] Speaker B: That's about right. And then in 1999, I remember that date well, because that was the date that my brother was very ill. My brother was in the last year of his life at that time.
So I was preoccupied with that. But there was a bust. The DEA, I believe, raided the temple and seized the medicine and said, you charged the UDV with conspiracy to distribute a controlled substance, which, of course, it wasn't, but that didn't stop them.
But Jeffrey Bronfen, who was being elected the head of the UDV in the United States, happened to be a quite wealthy individual, and he used to be was the sky in of the canadian Bronfin family. So he had a fat bank account, and he basically said, we're gonna fight this. You know, we don't accept this. This is a religious freedom issue. And they did. They took it all the way to the Supreme Court. It was the first decision that the Supreme Court made after John Roberts took over as chief justice.
The court's changed a lot since then, and not for the better. We don't need to get into that. But it was a unanimous decision by this very conservative court that clearly this is a religious Sacramento. The UDV is a real religion. It's not some fly by night religion. It's a real religion, and they have the right to use this. And then eventually that became extended to the central daimee and the other ayahuasca churches. And I guess the connection to the study was that we had the data. So that data became important in the review of the court in terms of whether to allow this.
And I did not testify to the court, but our colleagues did, particularly Charlie Grobe, Doctor Charlie Grove, who was the chief investigator on the study. And I don't think Jace Calloway testified, but there were some others to the TB approved for religious use under the Religious Freedom act. And that continues.
Yes, and the thachodaimi is now allowed to use it. It's been extended to the other groups as well. Is that right.
[00:25:05] Speaker A: Well, it started in Oregon.
Danny Sheehan for the Santo Dini, that's another. A Santo dining member can talk about that.
Yes, it is.
[00:25:18] Speaker B: Right.
[00:25:20] Speaker A: It's not approved for therapeutic settings, but it is for religious grounds of religious freedom.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: Right. Which is. How do you feel about that?
[00:25:36] Speaker A: I participated in a gathering, a conference in Rio Branco, Akri in. Oh, my gosh.
[00:25:49] Speaker B: 2016, was it?
[00:25:51] Speaker A: No, this was before.
This was with the different religious leaders of the different ayahuasca groups in Rio Branco. And there was a letter of principles and one of the stipulations, it was guidelines to follow to ensure that the groups could continue using it in a religious, spiritual context. And one of the principles, one of the guidelines was to not sell it and not use it in therapy.
So some people have not followed that. But fortunately, in Brazil, it is legal. According to the constitution, it achieved that status, and it is legal in the.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: United States as long as it's within the context of one of these recognized religions.
[00:26:56] Speaker A: Right. And for the UDV, there's a very strict protocol that has to be followed. They have to keep tabs on everything that is imported, everything that is made, the DMT content, how many members were present.
So the government expects a report, very detailed. It takes time and effort to provide that.
[00:27:28] Speaker B: Right. But as long as they comply with that, it's legal and it's allowed. And I don't know about the sense of diamond, but I don't think the UDV particularly seeks people to join. I mean, people hear about it, I guess people are able to join the UDV, but they're not out looking for converts.
[00:27:52] Speaker A: I really appreciate that about the UDD.
In fact, for many years, from the beginning, actually, there was more flexibility in the beginning with inviting people they didn't want, people who would just come for, you know, once or twice.
The UDV wants people who become members and incorporate this in their life as a spiritual path, as a way of life.
[00:28:24] Speaker B: Right.
[00:28:24] Speaker A: And they don't want the touristas. The tourists.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: Right. And you have to respect that. You know, I mean, we've seen what's happened to ayahuasca in indigenous ayahuasca in places like Peru.
It's become the basis of a whole tourist industry, and it's a double edged sword. I mean, my own experience has been primarily with those. I've helped organize ayahuasca retreats and so on. I've seen people benefit greatly from coming to these retreats. But in recent years, I've begun to question whether that's really a good thing.
It is a complex issue. But the question is, does that bring benefits to the community?
Does that help preserve this knowledge and preserve the traditions?
I know it definitely impacts the practices because it becomes a marketing issue. Effectively, tourists come to South America and they have certain expectations, and the market will respond to that. The UDV doesnt have to face any of that because theyre a religion. And its like, this is the way we do things. And if you couldnt sign on with that and youre comfortable with that, then you can become a member if youre serious. But its not a casual thing.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: Its not a casual thing. And theres a responsibility to being a member because, as you spoke with Michael recently, who's working on the preservation of the plant, conservation because even in the eighties, when I was living in Brazil, the people who would fly to the Amazon to look for the plants would have to go deeper and deeper into the jungle to find them, right.
Every nucleo has a, they have a place where they plant maridi and chakrana, the leaf and the vine, banisteriopsis and psychotria viridis. So they're being responsible to provide the plants themselves instead of going to the Amazon and harvesting there.
So one of the responsibilities of being a member is to show up at sessions, because it starts with how much tea can be prepared, right. And the structure where the session is held. There's so many seats. So if someone is a member and doesn't show up, they're taking the place of somebody who could be benefiting from that experience.
And so there was actually a request to not miss more than two sessions in a month and to really take it seriously because the UDB doesn't actively promote, it's all very private, I would say.
And they know the value of the opportunity.
So they want members to be regular. And if they're not going to be participating, to leave so that another person can come and take that space.
[00:32:06] Speaker B: Right. And they're certainly on the right side of the issue when it comes to sustainability.
They grow their own. They're not depleting the Amazon resource.
And that speaks very well of them. You know, I have, of course, my own experience with the UDV has been limited, but has been, you know, I mean, when we were doing this study, I was attended a number of sessions and got to know some of the people.
But my experiences have been uniformly positive. You know, they're, their ethics really is apparent when you get to know these people and know how they structure their society. I mean, it infuses their whole community and you know, these are really good people as trying to say, and they foster good values in their members generally. And.
And it's essential, it's necessary, because it is such a powerful medicine, and like any powerful spiritual technology, it's prone to abuse, it can be misused.
And occasionally, I suppose, even within the UDV, there are people that don't really, you know, that don't use it. Right, or they get. They get enamored of the power that it. That it gives them, and maybe they step out of the. They step away from the.
From the guidelines. Do you think that's a problem in the UDV?
[00:34:01] Speaker A: It has become. It did become a problem, yeah. More recently during the Bolsonaro presidency.
And I hesitate to go into it in much depth, but some people took advantage of their position as maestris, as very respected Maestris Masri is leader, teacher, and tried to persuade UDV members to vote in a certain way, act in a certain way.
And Mesty Gabriel, the founder of the UDV, said from the beginning, this is not a political organization, this is spiritual.
So to be able to draw that line and not bring politics, of course, politics are evolved because of the legalization and all of that, but each person has their own worldview, their own experience of what is right and what is wrong.
And the tea is good medicine. The tea is a true serum. In my experience, there's no hiding, because we see the repercussions of our actions, of our words right away. It's a blessing.
It's an incredible opportunity and gift. But some people don't either close to that or allow greed and power to take over.
And in their mind, they're doing the right thing.
But it went against the guidelines of the founder to not bring politics into the sacred arena of this mysterious tea.
Right.
I want to share an experience I had years ago talking about mysterious tea, please. It is a psychoactive plant, right? Combination of plants in the UDV. We call it sha a tea.
So I met three men.
This is years ago.
I think it was still in the late seventies, maybe early eighties.
So one was addicted to heroin, one was addicted to cocaine, and one to marijuana. And each of them thought they were going to drink ayahuasca and have an experience, right? Get high.
Each of them, these were individual cases, so different settings, different times, all in UDV settings, sessions, but they didn't drink in the same session. So each of them drank five times and nothing happened. Nothing.
They persevered. And the 6th time they had an experience.
So that's a mystery that you know, mesty. Gabriel called it the mysterious tea. So that was one of the mysteries I discovered.
[00:37:19] Speaker B: It certainly is.
It is indeed. It's very mysterious.
I've had similar experiences.
It's a mysterious tea. In pharmacology. It doesn't have that much to do with it.
I mean, for instance, these people took it six times nothing happened, or five times nothing happened. The pharmacology was there. I'm sure the tea was good, but their mindset was not good. They were not ready for it. And then at a certain point, the t, which, I mean, that sounds animistic, sort of, to say this, but the t understood. I attributed sort of an innate intelligence to the t.
And at some point you. It understood that now they're ready for the experience.
I've known other people, you know, who have taken, you know, in the retreats. I've been. Some people will take enormous doses, multiple cups. Nothing happens. Other people will take a tiny, tiny amount and they get a full experience, you know? And you probably also heard of people who take it during the session. Nothing happens. They're disappointed, they go to bed, they wake up and full mugesheira. The next morning they're fully on.
And so that is just part of the mystery of the tea, I guess.
It will open itself to you in.
When the time is right.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:10] Speaker B: Do you think of the tea as a teacher, as an intelligence, or how?
[00:39:15] Speaker A: Very much so I call her. I consider her a guide for me, a wise being, a counselor.
I had some really challenging situations in Brazil in the seventies and early eighties. And ayahuasca was my.
The word that's coming is savior. But I would go to a session and I'd receive guidance, and it helped me pull through those really difficult times.
And I. Each time I grew in compassion, in understanding and patience.
So my interpersonal relationships improved a lot because compassion, just understanding that this is where someone is in their life right now, that's what they're doing.
Yeah. My book goes into more details about some of the situations where ayahuasca helped me. I'll share something in regards to the. Nothing happened. I went to Campinas for a session in a small temple on a hill. Temple is the word for the meeting place where sessions are held. It's a small temple, and it was windy and blustery. It was father's day in the states, and I had zero experience. And I looked at everybody around me and they were obviously in a very high expanded state of consciousness, very aware. And nothing for me. Nothing, nothing, nothing. 4 hours and then I finally said, okay, and that's it. I'm not gonna. My lesson was one of patience. This time the session ended, and a friend came over to talk to me, and I stood up, and all of a sudden, I felt the experience just long, so strong.
And I excused myself, and I went outside, and I thought about my father and being father's day, and the wind was really robust.
And I went to the bathroom because I had to pee. And a voice told me, just as sure as you're going to sit down to pee, you are pregnant.
And I was just a few inches from sitting down, and I sat down. I just knew I was pregnant. That's the way the teacher gave me the information. And sure enough, I was pregnant. I miscarried, and the fetus went ten weeks, eight to ten weeks, and the fetus went into the toilet. So that was an appropriate place to receive that message wasn't a planned pregnancy.
So I feel that this magnificent teacher gives us information in a way that's tailor made for us.
One of my most beautiful experiences was after my grandfather died. I was very close to my grandfather, and before he died, I visited him in Japan. He was German, lived in Japan.
And I asked him what he thought about death, and he said he was an existentialist. And he said, well, I believe that life is here and now, but I don't know, I'll find out when it's time.
[00:42:47] Speaker B: The old honest answer, right?
[00:42:49] Speaker A: Yes. She was very humble. And I said, well, Oppa, that's grandfather in German. Will you give me a sign? Will you let me know if consciousness survives death? And he said, yes.
So a few years later, he'd passed, it was 90, and I drank the tea on my own.
I often drank in the states at a time that coincided with sessions in Brazil. 08:00 Saturday night. And I would drink at around three in California.
And at a certain moment in the session, I asked for a sign from my grandfather, and I saw a huge ear. I mean, this is really very big ear. The message was, listen.
He was, for all practical purposes, blind. And he learned to develop his sense of hearing and his memory.
He co wrote a german japanese dictionary. He was written Japanese also, and he authored textbooks, and he gave talks. And because he was blind, he couldn't read his notes. So he had an incredible memory. You could recite a poem and he could recite it back to you, so that seeing that ear was so profound, because the message was listen. And that's the redeeming lesson. I've carried that with me I don't drink ayahuasca very often these days. It's been a while, but I learned to cultivate intuition, sensitivity, which has helped me with my work as a death doula, to really deeply listen, to observe and listen its presence. But it goes. Its a depth of presence, right. So sometimes ill see that ear to this day and say, okay, youve got to listen more. Gotta listen more deeply. Just pause.
[00:44:54] Speaker B: Thats beautiful. At least, I think in a lot of ways that is. The message of ayahuasca is it teaches us to listen to ourselves, to our inner selves, to nature, hopefully to other people as well. It fosters this receptivity if you're able to open up to the message that it transmits, the messages that come into us all the time from many, many sources. But we're so good at suppressing them, we're so good at filtering things out. Sometimes the most important things get filtered out. And I think ayahuasca, like some of these other psychedelics, but I think that ayahuasca is very good at teaching us to listen.
That's really important.
But you haven't stayed with the UDV. Eventually something led you to go off on your own. You still drink, but you don't. You're not participating with the UDV anymore.
[00:46:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I was a member from 1977, when I was 21 to age 39, so 18 years. I left in 1995 precisely because I didn't want to be a tourist. I didn't want to take someone else's place. I was still a member, but because of my work as a death doula being so demanding, you could say I was working very intensively at that time, often, often overnights, sometimes five and a half weeks in a stretch, or three weeks at a stretch around the clock.
And there were times when I was working, when there were sessions going on, many, many, many times. And I left because my work with the dying became more important. And also as an independent american woman, it was difficult. Not that I wanted to be a mastery, believe me, I never wanted to be a mastery. And there is a hierarchy in the UDV, right.
There was a point when I couldn't stand behind some of the teachings in regards to homosexuality, in regards to women. And, well, Mestre Gabriel made his wife, Mesa Pekinina Amestri, so her name was Beckonina, and he gave her the star of Amestri. So he acknowledged her as achieving that rank of mestri.
There are a list of things that you need to do to become a mestri. Prepare. You know how to prepare the teas, sing shemadas. The invocations tell stories, and the height of the Buha be really clear and focused.
And when I asked about this, I traveled around Brazil asking members what they thought about women not being Mestiz. And each person told me their own view. And I realized there's a whole range of reasons why people are in the UDV and what their interpretation is of that.
Sometimes it might bother a person, but they decide to stay because of the value of what they're receiving in the community.
So it was rubbing me the wrong way, like a grain of sand.
The position of woman in the UDV, and if you think about it, Mestre Gabriel had great reverence for ayahuasca.
Owasuka is the name the UDV calls Owasuka, who's a counselor.
There's a whole story about her. So great reverence for the feminine, for the divine feminine. Yet it wasn't translated beyond him. He made his wife a messy. But there haven't been any other female mestis interesting.
[00:49:15] Speaker B: So that was something I wanted to ask you. For many people speaking about ayahuasca, apparently as an active intelligence, as a guide, it sends to many people as a feminine entity.
Is it that way for you?
[00:49:34] Speaker A: For me, yes.
A gentle yet strong and fierce sometimes.
But also the power of nature itself, the connection to plants, to water, to the earth, to the sky, to stars, is so powerful that they are the teachers. They come through.
[00:50:00] Speaker B: Right.
[00:50:01] Speaker A: But when I receive guidance directly, it feels like it's through the relationship that I have cultivated.
And for years after I, in 95, I left the UDB as a member, and then ten years later, I drank several times more. And then I've had experience with an american shaman and with the Kulina Indians and Amazon.
But the relationship I cultivated with Ayahuasca over the 18 years of more regular membership, drinking more regularly, it's a connection through the heart, and it's like higher wisdom that, for me, comes in the forum of a woman. I did see a woman once, and the shores of the Amazon, it felt like it was definitely a feminine presence, whether that, for me was the way she appeared so I could have a chance to a feminine incarnation of light appearing as a spirit being. Right. But when I think of ayahuasca, I think of the power of nature, the mysteries of nature, the sublimity, right.
All the dimensions that we experience through ayahuasca.
Looking at the background of plants behind you that is so predominant in my experience with ayahuasca is the connection to nature I've always been connected to nature since I was young, but this enhanced it. It made me appreciate so much more the spirit beings and that, of course.
[00:51:52] Speaker B: The vibrancy and the fecundity of nature is very much related to the feminine. I mean, the feminine is the creative energy.
There's the whole Gaia concept, mother Earth, which I think is literally true. I mean, you don't have to. It's not necessarily a woo woo concept. I mean, you've heard of the Gaia hypothesis, and I think there's something to that that is not necessarily it has scientific aspects, but it has spiritual aspects. Many people experience ayahuasca as a loving feminine entity. That's been my own experience and like you say, also fierce.
Its not a young, beautiful woman that I experience. Its like your grandmother to me, your grandmother who has seen a lot, whos infinitely wise, who cares a great deal about you, but wont hesitate to hit you upside the head if thats what you need.
Thats true. Ayahuasca is that, you know, I don't project so much the feminine on it anymore, but I've had powerful experiences of being sort of enveloped, embraced by this loving feminine energy. And it's amazing and it's heartwarming. It literally is ayahuasca. I think, you know, for you, I think you're kind of unique in that ayahuasca. You came through it through the UDV, you've experienced indigenous ceremonies, but it's always been kind of a personal thing that is valid for you outside of any of these social or community contexts. It is like a personal teacher and an ally and.
And still is. Or not so much anymore.
[00:54:06] Speaker A: Not so much. I feel that my ability to enter expanded states of consciousness through meditation. I'm more of a Taoist these days. I practice a lot of qigong. Being in nature, I am open to if there's a time when I feel I need more guidance or want that depth of experience that I'm not accessing through the dream time, through intuition, through experiences in nature, then yes, I will definitely say yes to an opportunity that presents itself. I've been. I've received many invitations, but it hasn't been the right time. I just haven't felt a need to do that because the imprint of the 18 years was so deep, so strong. It did leave an imprint in me of a way to be in my life.
And more importantly, I feel this time I'm 68 and focusing on living in the woods, living in the red woods, gardening, being near the river. You stayed with us. So, you know, what it's like here in Boulder Creek. And grounding is really important to me, I think, because I was in expanded states for a good part of my life. Now, being groundish is very important, something.
[00:55:38] Speaker B: To be said for that. And Ayahuasca's good for that too, you know, so, I mean, you never really close the door on it. It's there or it's not.
[00:55:49] Speaker A: It's there.
[00:55:50] Speaker B: But I think you've been involved with ayahuasca so long and in such an intense way that it's. It's in your heart, you know, it's. Well, in your heart, you don't have to take the tea necessarily, to.
To tap into it. You know, the wisdom is there as a living, as a living thing.
[00:56:14] Speaker A: I agree. And I'll share something that Jace Callaway told me as I was having dreams for five years, dreams where I was in the expanded state of consciousness, and he said it's cellular memory.
And then over time, the dreams diminished. But there was a time when I would reach for a glass of tea, or I would be given it.
And then before I knew it, I was in another state, in another situation, an elevated state. Right. But I was being shown that my life was shifting from that regularity of drinking tea to practicing more qigong and meditating more dancing.
I often dance my prayers, and I enter an expanded state, a trance state.
As an end of life caregiver. I've gone through the passages of many people, and I pray for them before they pass and after they pass, and I feel, like, communicate with them. So there's so many vehicles to enter that expanded state, and I definitely haven't closed the door. It's been ten years since I had a session, but when I feel called, I'll say yes. When it feels right, I'll say yes.
[00:57:45] Speaker B: Yes, yes, exactly.
Ayahuasca. For years, some years, about ten years now, you've been a deaf doula.
Does 30 years inform that experience or help you in that role?
[00:58:05] Speaker A: It helped me a lot because I realized that the spirit does.
Consciousness survives death. That's one way of explaining it. The physical body can cease to be filled with the vital energy, and consciousness continues. I've seen this over and over again in sessions with ayahuasca, and also communication with the spirits of those who have passed. So I have no doubt that consciousness continues beyond the physical body.
So ayahuasca did help me with that. It laid the ground, my belief in reincarnation and just being able to communicate with my grandfather. With my father, with my mother, with clients I've had.
But what really helped a lot was being with my grandmother.
I was alone with her, and the owner of the nursing home in memory care home in Laguna beach said, we had just taken her five days earlier, and she said, you have to come get your grandmother because she's going to die, and I don't want to her to die here. It was a new home owned by a foreigner, an iranian woman, and she didn't want someone to die there within five days of going there. So I brought her home, and I had some ayahuasca in the house, and I anointed her. I totally did what my intuition instructed me to do. I anointed her, and I told her how much I loved her.
And then I went to the kitchen to get some cookbooks. I had a sudden urge to bake cookies, because that's always what she did when she visited us or we visited her. And during those few minutes, I was in the kitchen bringing some cookbooks back to look, just continue sitting by her side. She passed minutes, minutes. And the look on her face was so peaceful and so serene.
I realized death doesn't need to be scary.
It don't need to be frightened of death. It can be easy and peaceful.
And that took my fear of death away.
That one experience.
[01:00:43] Speaker B: Amazing. That's amazing.
[01:00:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And from then on, I knew I could handle anything. I knew that by following my intuition, listening for the guidance.
The next client I had, the first official client I had, was when I felt that I was a midwife to the dine. I was helping her cross over. I was there as a. Like a coach, just following guidance on what to do and what to say. So being a channel, you know, getting out of my own way and just allowing and respecting the guidance that I'm being given.
[01:01:22] Speaker B: This is kind of a classic shamanic role, isn't it?
[01:01:28] Speaker A: It is.
[01:01:29] Speaker B: Shaman goes into the other soul, other realm, and escorts the soul to the other side. That, effectively, that's what you're doing as a doula. That must be incredibly intense and very powerful work.
Very gratifying and very gratifying and scary sometimes.
[01:01:57] Speaker A: Oh, sometimes, you know, prayer has been my.
I would say that what I resort to because some of the situations are very challenging, beyond anything I had ever imagined.
And prayer opens doors. It's amazing how things happen.
Prayer. I'll send you an or, I'll tell you one on one, when we get together about an experience I had with a. A former Stanford anesthesiologist who just miraculous things happened when the veil was really thin during his transition was miraculous.
So I believe in the power of prayer.
[01:02:44] Speaker B: Well, I want to hear about it. This has been great.
We're coming. We're a little bit over an hour, so we're trying to.
[01:02:55] Speaker A: Thank you so much.
[01:02:56] Speaker B: Is there anything we haven't said that you want to be sure? We. We say.
[01:03:02] Speaker A: It'S paramount that people who want to drink ayahuasca use discernment, that they take care with whom they drink, and providence of the tea.
Just asking some questions, checking around, because it is a profound experience, and it's important to be with the.
An experienced guide who treats it as a sacred plant. Medicine. Yes, sacred.
[01:03:36] Speaker B: Someone you can trust, someone that you know has your best interests at heart in the way that ayahuasca has our best interest. Art. You know, the person serving it has got to be worthy of that and worthy of.
I mean, ayahuasca bestows the gift, but the person facilitating it has to be a worthy person. It's part of creating the right vessel for ayahuasca. I sometimes tell people ayahuasca is a liquid. It will fill any vessel you create for it, but you have to make sure it's the right kind of vessel in order to give it the respect it deserves. So, yeah.
[01:04:26] Speaker A: Well said. Well said.
[01:04:28] Speaker B: Thank you, Annalise. This has been a conversation.
Fantastic. Congratulations on your upcoming marriage. Thank you. I know Tom. I had the pleasure of meeting him last summer. You guys make a great couple, and I wish you and him all the best. And I'll see you one of these days soon. This year later.
[01:04:57] Speaker A: Yes. Great. Thank you so much.
[01:04:59] Speaker B: See both of you. Thank you so much.
[01:05:02] Speaker A: Thank you.
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