Episode Transcript
[00:00:13] Speaker A: Welcome to Brainforest Cafe with Dennis McKenna.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Brian Knapp has immersed himself in the online kava community for over six years, diligently seeking out new information, engaging with thought leaders, and championing progress within the community.
With a personal history of consuming kava spanning almost a decade, he assembled a wide variety of kava products.
Today he joins me to delve into the ongoing discourse surrounding kava cultivation in the continental US and the juxtaposition with Kratom. Brian is a staunch supporter of the International Kava Organization and wishes to extend a special acknowledgement to Pacific Santo limited and Vanuatu for their commitment to kava excellence and their outstanding contributions to rural village development.
He's put a link here, which we will post on the website, the international Kava organization, internationalcava.org dot.
It's my pleasure to welcome Brian to the Brain Forest cafe.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: Hi, thanks for having me, Dennis.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: Hi, Brian, it's good to see you. Thanks for making this opportunity available, and I'm curious to learn all about the current status of kava in the world. I used to be involved with it many, well, not that many years ago, but I guess a couple decades ago, in the late nineties, I was quite involved in the kava business and mostly consulting and so on, and I have a soft spot for kava in the sense that I think it's a very beneficial, useful medicine. Recreational pharmaceutical or recreational herbal supplements.
How did you get involved in all this for a guy? Are you from originally from Minnesota?
[00:02:28] Speaker A: Yeah, so I'm minnesotan. I have no origins to Cabo whatsoever.
I discovered it, strangely enough, when I was like, probably 18, my mom was an alcoholic, and I saw this bottle of kava tincture in the pantry, and I had to google it to figure out what it was, because I was kind of worried, you know, hey, is this something I gotta be careful of? Of, uh, a potential, you know, she abusing it and I was afraid. I saw those liver scare stuff. I saw this could cause liver damage and actually told my mom to not take it. Um, because, you know, alcohol is very damaging to the liver. And I was like, well, Kava, this is damaging to the liver. She should be taking this as well.
That was a bad move, because kava is definitely not dangerous to deliver.
There was lots of misunderstanding of how that became. It was oversupply or over demand of the industry with not enough supply. So anything that had cavalactones coming out of Vayanatu was trying to be extracted, and that probably led to contaminated kava. So it wasn't necessarily the kava that made the liver issues, it was contaminations that are easily preventable.
And the industry has definitely moved forward to, you know, not have any more.
[00:03:56] Speaker B: Contamination, potentially extracting some of the wrong parts of the plant, the base, instead of the. The roots or the rhizomes. And, yeah, it's. It's quite unfortunate. I was active in kava when all that was coming out, and it was quite unfortunate because kava is a very beneficial medicine, particularly for things like anxiety and difficulty sleeping and this sort of thing. And when the whole controversy about the liver toxicity began to emerge in the supplement industry, I thought, this looks like a red flag to me. This looks like a red herring. I think the european pharmaceutical industry was very interested in making sure Gava did not compete with benzodiazepines, which is what's in the market. So there was, I think, a concerted campaign to give it a bad reputation. And as a result, a lot of people who could benefit have not benefit because people are scared, even though there's been quite a lot of effort to correct the perception and educate the public. And Kava is probably, given all of its constituents and its complexity, it's probably, if anything, it's good for the liver, you know?
[00:05:28] Speaker A: Yeah, right. There's studies that show there's constitutes of kava that do actually have protective assets to the liver, so.
[00:05:38] Speaker B: Right.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: Interesting how that works.
[00:05:40] Speaker B: And there's no evidence, no solid scientific evidence that it has liver toxicity. I think case studies that were reviewed were all flawed.
The American Herbal Products company Association looked into this.
In almost all of these cases, with one or two exceptions, the people had a history of alcoholism or other liver disorders, or they were combining it with other things and so on. So it's unfortunate because it is a useful medicine, and it's a pleasant drink, and it's beneficial in all ways, maybe, at least in terms of personal use and benefits.
There may be issues about, you know, biopiracy and over exploitation, and we can talk about all that.
[00:06:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I definitely love to get into that. I'm going to just continue a little bit more about how I discovered Calvin, because kind of shares just my story about it. It's important to me. So when I graduated college, I actually, we planned a trip to Hawaii as kind of a celebration. And I just had this spark of memory that kava was in Hawaii. It was a very strange flashback to four years ago, when I was still in high school, discovering it, just looking at it. And I was smoking cannabis at the time and needed to quit that for a drug test and just was like, you know what? I'm going to Hawaii, I'm going to try to find kava. So my first actual experience with kava was with a fresh kava. There's fresh kava and then there's dried kava. Fresh is the most preferred in Hawaii. And so that was very special to me that I actually had my first experience in the islands. And yeah, I've been drinking it kind of ever since, slowly. It's a very long learning curve to figure out how kava fits for you. Um, the pills and the tinctures, they. They do okay for like, uh, you know, medical use and for a little bit of antianxiety. But the real antianxiety, the real social lubrication comes from the drink. When you make it with the powder, you put it in the water, you strain it, and then you share it with friends. So the conversation that comes with kava really adds to the kava, and that's something that science can't really capture. It's very strange how it does work that way. When you drink kava and you are in a good conversation, it elevates that good conversation to being a special conversation. And it's one of those things that the western perspective of medicine can't really put words to, would put a theory and a hypothesis and conduct a study.
They're trying to be done. People are trying to make studies on the taalanoa is the traditional word for it, where you sit around the kava bowl, you're drinking kava with your friends, and you're talking about khanda, your everyday stresses in livestock.
It's being missed in translation into America. And it kind of leads into the problems that we are seeing with the culture appropriation. So kava is in America, it's been here for diaspora. I've always had it and been drinking it in America. The western kind of more people like it. It started to show up during prohibition. Actually, since the alcohol was scarce, people are trying to make kaaba products to, you know, hey, this is an alcohol substitute that never really took off. And then in the like, in the 1998 Dennis, you might know more about this, of that kind of emergence. That's where it really exploded. Fiji was. Had a massive amount of exports, is everyone wanted kava. France and Germany were making pharmaceutical products about it. There were commercials on tv for kava products in America. Arizona iced tea had a kava product, monster energy, before monster energy existed, had a kava product.
So it really had this huge explosion. And then, of course, the liver scare coming from Germany just shut it all down. And it didn't really fully shut. There was still a kava bar in Florida that started, I think, in 2002. So right after the liver scare, they kind of stuck around and still started to sell kava. But this is where it gets fuzzy, and this is where no one's given that good answer of kratom was introduced to one of the first kavabars in Florida. And now a kava bar is essentially a kava and kratom bar. So there's all these kava bars spread across the United States with almost being like 80% to 90% of them being kava kratom bars. And when I say kava kratom bars, kratom is the. It's the thing that's fueling the engine. It's the thing that's making them the money. Kava gets some sales, but people get addicted to Kratom and you to get their daily fix of kratom. And if they don't, they have withdrawals and don't feel normal. Kava doesn't do that. It's very unfortunate. I consider that culture appropriation because you're selling kratom at a kaaba bar that's South Pacific themed. You're trying to. You're trying to say, like, this is a culture here, and then you're adding an indonesian culture or a Thailand culture, and you're just not even telling the people about the kratom culture. Because kratom, from what I've seen, doesn't really have a strong culture in Indonesia or in Thailand. It's really Americans that are trying to develop that.
[00:12:00] Speaker B: Yes. No, it's misrepresenting Covid kratom to try and make people think that they go together or they really have any relationship. I mean, kratom is fine. It's got its virtues.
You know, it's a much more problematic kind of thing because of the opiate issue. I don't think that people get easily addicted to kratom, although your experience may be different. But it's unfortunate that these, what should really be two separate and perfectly good cultural tradition should be combined. I mean, this is what happens when the market sort of loses its perspective. It goes after the profit. If you can sell karma, that's one thing. If you can sell kratom, that's one thing. But if you can combine them and kratom and comma are not necessarily combined in the beverage, right? They're taken separately, or are there formulas?
[00:13:10] Speaker A: No, there's. There's a, there's ready to. Ready to drink products that come in little bottles that mix kava and kratom together. And they say it's kava and other ancient plants. They're not even saying kratom's in it on the front marketing and they, all their marketing materials is about kava. So they're just adding kratom and saying kava still the main thing. But Kratom's added and it's, it's getting people seriously addicted. I'm talking $100 a day level of addictions.
So it's just, you know, it's, it's not necessarily killing a lot of people, but it's draining bank accounts and it's, you know, marketed as an alternative healthy lifestyle drink. So people that are formerly alcoholics start taking this product and are just back in their same addiction that they experienced with alcohol. And it is so unfortunate that this is occurring because kava in itself, if you're drinking it in more of the traditional aspect of just water and kava, you're not going to drain your bank account. It's really hard to drink a ton of kava. At most, you'd go through 2 month. That's quite excessive. But that's still not going to be to draining your bank account, you know, contemplating what you're going to do, being large amounts of debt. So it's, again, kind of one of these things where they, Kratom has its place, don't get me wrong, it definitely has its place for people with pain, but they're trying to push it in a light where it's not just for pain anymore. They're trying to push it where, hey, you want a little energy boost, Kratom's perfect for that. You want to be a little bit more productive. Kratom's perfect for that.
You know what? That goes the same for an opioid. You want to feel a little better, take an opioid.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: Right?
[00:15:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:15] Speaker B: But with kava, I mean, it seems like this, this mixing things up, not necessarily directly, but mixing up the whole message with Kratom has really damaged the kava perception and created or effectively mitigated against the possibility that kava could be understood. I think it is, but it's not out there, but could be understood as a very reasonable alternative to alcohol. You know, I mean, as a social lubricant. It's social lubricant like alcohol, but it's a better one because it's better for you. It doesn't hurt your liver and actually it doesn't impair your judgment. I mean, it actually does stimulate social interaction and that sort of thing, which is kind of the point of a social lubricant, and alcohol will do that initially, when you first have a few drinks, then it kind of degenerates into being drunken, incoherent, and not even that pleasant.
So Kava's kind of been fighting an uphill battle in a lot of ways to try to achieve the recognition that it really deserves.
We're having, in the McKenna Academy, we're having conversations right now about coca, you know, and coca is in a very similar situation. Coca is a completely, you know, used in the unrefined form, in the traditional form, it's perfectly beneficial and actually quite good medicinal plant, it's a food and all that, but it faces the same problem because it has the stigma. Oh, my God. It's the source of cocaine, you know, the demon drug and so on, of course. Well, we're not going to get into that here, but it has a similar challenge in the. In the public perception to kava.
[00:17:30] Speaker A: Yeah, no, definitely the public perception of kava is still.
It should be looked upon as how coffee is looked upon. It really does have that same kind of, uh, mental effects where you feel the coffee, you feel the caffeine, you feel a little altered, but you're 100% yourself, right. Um, and it's the same. It's kind of the same with coffee. When you drink too much, it gets quite unpleasant, um, kava, if you drink too much, kava, it does end up being quite displeasant, and to me, that's. That's good for a substance that kind of alters your mind. You don't. You don't want to have something where always you take more. It's always going to be better, because it just adds to that kind of level of escapism that substances tend to fall into. And kava, isn't that escape, just like coffee isn't kind of an escape, it's more of just an alter. It's more of just an activity that makes you feel better, you drink kava with friends, that's kind of more of an activity, in my opinion. You can still drink kava alone, I don't have any issue with it. Some people do see it as quite taboo, and if you talk to, like, Pacific Islanders, they'd be like, you drink kava just at lone by your night, they will give you kind of a strange glance, be like, I would never do that. You know, I would always try to hit up one of my friends to be like, hey, you want to, you know, make some kava? Mix some kava, and we'll drink it all night.
[00:19:06] Speaker B: Yeah. It's. It's definitely a social.
Primarily a social drug. There's. There's.
Yeah, I mean, that. That's the appropriate setting. People are free to use it anywhere, but that's. That's how it's usually used, you know? And I don't know if it's even possible you would have a better idea. I don't know if it's even possible to actually overdose on kava. I mean, if you. If you take. If you take too much kava, basically go to sleep. Right? You have a rest.
[00:19:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:43] Speaker B: Or a mass. We.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: You're gonna throw up. If you drink too much kava, that's. Yeah, that's what's gonna happen.
I have not seen it in America yet, but in the South Pacific, if you drink too much kava, and you're. I'm talking like 12 hours normally. It's like six in the morning that this occurs. There might be other substances that are involved that induces this, but you'll see videos of people just shaking, but they're still fully conscious. Now, I don't say this to scare anyone into kava, because I tried to get to this state. And have it ever succeeded? Um. It might be something with an electrolyte imbalance that I'm seeing, or it's, again, another substance that induces kind of this shaky that you see. But it is. It is seen in the South Pacifics. When you drink a massive amounts of kava, you'll get the shakes. That's the most extreme.
[00:20:39] Speaker B: People don't do that very well.
[00:20:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's probably fine. And also shamed. You'll get a video of yourself and they'll post it on Facebook for everyone to see.
[00:20:48] Speaker B: Somebody that did that would be recognized as somebody that needs a little counseling, you know, basically, in how to appropriately use this. So. But it's unfortunately that the whole. It's unfortunately, the whole kratom conversation and the association with kava has really damaged. I think it's damaged both plants, but, yeah, like you say, kratom, it has a context, social context in Indonesia, but it's used quite differently.
And people in the states seem to seek it out for pain, mostly, and it's effective. Yeah, but kava is actually a whole culture. And so when you're ripping off the plant, you're effectively contaminating the cultural context as well. Just like with so many of these sacred medicines, it's hard to transplant them to a context outside the traditional context, but people do, and it leads to problems, so.
[00:21:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But as far as, like, the Thailand and kratom, it's the fresh leaf, if I'm understood correctly, that's kind of used in the social context in Thailand, correct?
[00:22:12] Speaker B: I believe so, yes.
[00:22:13] Speaker A: Yeah. So that drying process actually adds more addictive. I'm not. I'm not a chemist. I don't. I don't fully understand all of this, but I do. I do see that the dried aspects, and there's way different ways of drying. So you can dry with a little bit of, um, uh, yeast or a little bit of mold, and it will ferment and, uh, ferment and change the kratom, and changing it makes it even more addictive. And that. That's what we're seeing in a lot of, uh, the kratom products in America. Well, all of the kratom products is you're not getting fresh kratom in America. So that kind of culture that you see in Thailand with the fresh kratom leaf isn't even seen in America. So it's very unfortunate that, you know, money, what money will do with people.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: So these fermentation processes, these drying processes lead to formation of this seven hydroxy mitroginine and is definitely an ob eight, quite a potent one. And there's no ambiguity about it. It acts like an opiate, and if you take too much of that, I mean, a lot of the extracts never had it because they don't prepare it that way. It's something that shows up in the drying process, and it definitely is a, you know, it's a downside to kratom in a certain sense. It also happens to be the most effective opiate in kratom. So, yeah, that's a whole other conversation I don't want too far down the path with Kratom, although it is an issue to talk about. In the case of Ava, though, how do you find the sort of current commercial situation right now with respect to supply biopiracy issues, if there are any? I mean, here you have a medicine and a food, basically a supplement that is very much part of the Pacific culture, but it has the potential to have a global presence.
How do the people in Vanuatu and Fiji, in these places where it's been traditional for thousands of years, basically, how do they feel about all this? How are they dealing with. It's sort of coming on to the global stage, but not exactly bursting because of some of the, because of various factors that, that are holding it back. And maybe that's a good thing. It's not becoming a global commodity.
[00:25:06] Speaker A: Yeah, that's an excellent question. And it's, it's definitely an ongoing thing. It's very bumpy road, so to speak, on how people are perceiving this.
For the most part, it is providing income to the farmers, to rural communities, and I'm talking income to places that don't have running water, don't have electricity. So this does help a lot of people. But there is a lot of issues with Ava not being respected because this is a cultural keystone species. This connects all of the Pacific Islander people together and their culture, and America is just ripping it and taking it as if it's their own. So people in America are, you know, thinking, well, it's grown in Hawaii, so I can take cuttings from Hawaii and start trying to grow it in Florida. It's, I mean, it's not going to grow in Florida. You can, you can damn well try. You're going to spend way more money planting it in Florida than you would planting in Hawaii. But those people have ambition to take it to Costa Rica, to take it to Peru, to take it to Colombia and introduce it to the farmers there.
And whos going to get that profits? Well, its going to be the people that take the cuttings there and start the industry. And it would be on them to give back to the Pacific islander people. And thats where I see the Biro piracy being a big issue. I dont really think the continental America brewing kava is viable or a very big concern. But the concern is those cuttings from Hawaii. And who is going to profit from taking those to Peru, Colombia, Costa Rica, Indonesia, the Philippines?
Many places can grow kava and it's even needed to expand the industry because there will be a day where the kava supply.
The demand's too big. Right now. We're in a good moment where the supply is still fine, there's still room to grow in banana to. There's still room to grow in Fiji. Well, Fiji's a little less Vayner to definitely has more space and more room for expansion, but it needs to be the Pacific Islanders voices that and they get the money from it when they decide to expand it. And as far as I know, I can't think of any agricultural commodity that has had this issue because all of the biopiracy is of a per commodities is so 100, 200 years ago where no one was thinking about this stuff. It was. I got here first, I'm going to take my bag and run.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: So most of our medicinal plants and many of our food plants that we use today is a reflection of this 500 years of bio, all of which is mostly the global south. So now you have it different geographical region, the Pacific islands region, with their own issues around cultural.
Cultural stability, I guess you could say. But kava is one of those plants that helps.
It's a cultural statement to be involved with it. And many of the people, I'm sure, who decide, well, I can go to Hawaii and bring back some cuttings of coffin, and they may be able to grow it. I mean, they're not necessarily doing it with bad intention.
I mean, I'm sure a lot of them think, well, this will be a great crop for South America, alternative to coping. So, of course, it's not really. But the perception is they're probably doing these communities some benefit to introduce kava, where they really should be focusing their attention on the Pacific island communities. How do they maintain their cultural integrity, their stake, if you will, in kava as part of their cultural heritage.
And yet, inevitably, there are going to be people that want to take it out of that context and grow it. Is there an ethical way forward for this to happen? I mean, I don't know what the. I know there are various. The international Kava organization that you mentioned is grappling with this, right?
[00:29:58] Speaker A: Yeah, it's kind of one of the issues that needs to, you know, there needs to be some sort of institution or some. Some form where at least the producers that are, you know, moving it overseas into areas that aren't, you know, traditional, have some. Some sort of access to show that they're giving back and to prove through an organization that this. They are, you know, giving back a significant portion to the Pacific Islander people.
It's something that you couldn't be enforced, though. It would have to be just trying to get the word of mouth around to be like that. If you see this on a kava project or this kava product says, XYZ money's gone there and it's verified by XYZ organization that that's validated. You know, that that's true. It's. It's. It's something that I feel is hard to do. Right. Um, and it's unfortunate, you know, you. You wish that there'd be some sort of international organization that says, no, it's against the law to. To take, you know, a buyer like a product from another nation and, you know, take it and do biopiracy. And throw it in there.
It's an issue that I don't have a good answer to, and I think about it a lot.
How can kava, the growth of kava, how can that benefit the Pacific Islander people the most? And again, kind of where I've come to the best conclusion is, well, there can be some sort of way of giving back and proving that you're giving back and just hoping that people seek out companies that are trying to give back and are trying to, you know, make sure that the expansion of Kaba leads to the development of von Natsu and Fiji. Because, you know, living without a running toilet, that's. No one wants that. People want running toilets. People fought electricity.
Yeah. They're not going to be Americans.
[00:32:09] Speaker B: They don't want a Walmart wants these things. Yeah, well, you know, these are the temptations of the so called developed world, you know, and they want the Internet, they want running toilets, they want all these things that they're exposed enough to media and so on, to make them think that they want these things.
And they do. I mean, they actually want them. But the thing is, there's no attempt. No attempt to educate them to think, well, maybe you don't want these things. Maybe your life is better without these things, you know.
[00:32:42] Speaker A: Well, I think. I think banana is a great example of that because they do have, you know, access to the Internet. Everyone's got, you know, more people have cell phones there than, you know, toilets. But I do think everyone would prefer a sewage system or at least some sort of, you know, solid form of, like, holding into septic, you know, just so it's safe for safety, you know. Um, so I'm just a big advocate for. For people, you know, just the running toilets, showers, uh, running water. Electricity doesn't necessarily need to come with all the, you know, commodity stuff that we buy, like this stuff. You go to Walmart, you know, I don't think that you need to be a consumer to still, you know, want some of the benefits of the west.
[00:33:36] Speaker B: You know, amenities of civilization.
[00:33:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:39] Speaker B: You can't. I mean, with an organization, it's just very hard to know because there's no. There's the international Kava organization, which is basically an educational organization.
[00:33:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:56] Speaker B: No regulatory clout, no regulatory influence, but possibly could work with something like, I don't know, the American Herbal Products association for the states or something to set up some sort of an ethical framework or free trade framework. I mean, this has been done. I don't know if that's the appropriate model, but of course, with chocolate and coffee, to a certain extent, teas. These things are now global commodities and they are reflection of biopiracy. But now their efforts were to establish fair trade, supply chains and that sort of thing.
I don't know. Do you think that's a viable course for Covid future development?
[00:34:53] Speaker A: I do, but I don't think it can come soon enough just because it's very hard to get even the players in the combat industry today together on the same page, because half of them are. They're. They're into kratom and they. They don't see the mixing of two as. As much of an issue. And guess who has a little bit more money in their pockets? Well, it's the people with the kratom, so it's unfortunate. But I do see that one day that that will be the practice of some sort of organization within, like a fair trade or fair practice stamp on it. Yeah.
[00:35:34] Speaker B: And it seems like it would be simpler if the kratom had not contaminated the conversation.
[00:35:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I completely agree.
[00:35:46] Speaker B: So.
Because then it's hard to separate them.
Where do you see kava in the next ten years? How do you see this industry developing?
[00:36:02] Speaker A: I see a huge expansion. As soon as some sort of more regulatory body comes out and says that kava is safe, you can go online and you can find the who say that kava is safe with one in. It says something outrageous number. It's like one in more than a million people would experience liver. It's very small amount that. And that's just them guessing. They just want to be on the safe side.
But that's kind of, the FDA kind of gave. It was in 2020 that they actually gave out a statement that said that kava's not grass. Not generally recognized as safe. But it's a strange statement because it is grass if it's just kava and water only. So it's not. If it's kava and you add it to, you know, another beverage and that, that kind of puts. It's another kind of. You have to read between the lines to speed. Oh. And it's even in, you know, in health departments don't get. Understand it. They don't understand that. No, this is how it is. Like, it is gross. If it's kava and water, it's not with other stuff. If you add the other stuff in.
So this is like, as soon as one of those regulatory, or I guess the EU, if the EU says kava is safe, which just as recently as two months ago, they had the hand down. No, kava is not safe. We're never going to change it. More studies need to be done. There's been plenty of studies, but the studies that they see are the ones with extracts. So it's just because kava is not safe in some sort of form of extract. They interpreted that as, you know, the regular kapha, that is not safe. And these are two separate things. One's a kavalactone product and the other is kava.
We don't call it a caffeine pill, a coffee pill. Right.
[00:37:56] Speaker B: So it's the same issue that plagues coca.
[00:38:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:02] Speaker B: Okay. In any of these situations where, you know, almost always if you extract the ingredients, then they are more potent, certainly, but more toxic and more hazardous, you know, and that's. And Kava's one of those that's at risk for that, just like coca. But the solution, I think, is to educate people about the right way to use it if they're open to that. Like, you know, coca is a very beneficial plant. If you just chew it in the traditional way, and if you just take a kava water extract to prepare that, it's. It's not toxic, it's not, uh. There are no issues, and it's actually quite beneficial. How do you get that message out to people? Health? You know, people are amazingly, as you found in the industry, I'm sure people are amazingly naive about issues that, to you and me, seem obvious, you know, the difference between an extract and a water extract. I mean, this is not rocket science, you know. Yeah, a lot of people are, you know, and like, and then you've got the European Union, which is basically just being deliberately obtuse about it. I mean, you know, they know that the traditional kava is not toxic, there are no livers, but it's convenient for them to propagate this misinformation.
And so I think, in part, the solution is to just push back on that as much as possible in forums like this and other types of, you know, industry forums and so on, which you probably. I'm sure you're more familiar with that than I am at this point, but do you go to the, like, natural products expo and that sort of thing, and try and present not so much the product, but the whole context of issues around it?
[00:40:13] Speaker A: No, that's an excellent suggestion. I definitely want to go get the international kava, or, you know, wish any kava organization or kava vendors that represent just kava would go to one of these expos and represent kava in the right light, because it's in these expos? You typically don't even see kava, and if you do, it is with kratom. Not to bring that back up, but so, yeah, that is something that we definitely plan on doing. Haven't yet, because we are very.
[00:40:49] Speaker B: We.
[00:40:49] Speaker A: We are very grassroots. We, the director behind it doesn't have formal background in running a 501 C three. We do have 501 C status. We got a team behind us, we got industry experts behind us, but we are just a very slow going. But I believe fully in the organization that one day we will succeed in our mission of telling the world that, hey, kapha is safe, where people should drink kava. And this is what kapha truly is, the traditional form of kava.
[00:41:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And if more people drank kava, the world would be a better place.
I think it's the traditional tongan or fijian statement that with kava in you, you cannot hate.
Yeah. Is that.
[00:41:46] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a lot to or Fiji.
I know a hawaiian one. That's when you drink alcohol, you become a beast. When you drink kava, you become a man. I think it's something along those lines. Just saying, you know, alcohol turns you into something else. In Kapha, uh, keeps you the same, and it's also person.
[00:42:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:42:09] Speaker A: It it also. In vahanatu. I know it's, um, you know, in the nakamal, in vah natu is a hut that, uh, in the traditional aspect, men only go to, which is a little bad, but that's their culture. It's where the men go to, to make decisions. So they'll drink kava and then make the decision, and also they'll drink kava to solve feuds.
So if there's two. If there's two tribes fighting, they would resolve their issues over kava. It is very much something that can break down that ever building barrier that we're seeing today. We keep seeing this divide bigger and bigger. One side isn't wanting to talk to the other. And a lot of times, people just want to feel like they're listened, and so much so is coming the case of, I don't even want to hear it. You know, it's like, no, no, let. Let them speak it out. It might be crazy, it might not be what you agree, but it's what they feel and what they feel like they need to say. And just shutting that down builds up that barrier even more and more. And so if the world had kava today, I I think there would be a lot more peace. That's.
It's very hard to fight on kava.
[00:43:28] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. With kava Inu, you cannot hate.
So, as we've been talking here, I'm wondering maybe the way to. Maybe a path to ethically commercialize kava and get it out more to people is to.
And you'll undoubtedly have an answer as to why this won't work or hasn't worked. But what about naka mals? Could you. I mean, that would be one way to get comment to the people through creating naka mals.
There are a number of them in Hawaii, obviously, because that's where the tradition is, but not so many on the mainland. But maybe that's a path forward to, you know, I mean, capital and so on. But if you had knock them all.
It's a place where people come to enjoy kava and you get away from the old kratom issue and so on.
[00:44:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:36] Speaker B: Viable business possibility.
[00:44:38] Speaker A: Yeah. No, there are a few kaaba bars out there that only sell kava. You know, that's all they do, is kava and coffee. And they're very much used as a third place where, you know, at the end of the day, you have. You see your friends there. You have random people that you can conversate with.
So there are some spreading. It's seen coming from the west coast is where the true nakamals, the true kava bars are showing up. But it's. It's the Florida scene and the Ava Kratom bars are kind of.
They've kind of hit barriers on, you know, who's gonna take over the. Or who is gonna represent kaaba more. And right now, it definitely is way more of the kava kratom bars that are representing kava. But I do see the kava bars that only sell kava as something that has the ability to expand nations. I don't think a kava kratom bar could work in Europe. I don't even think they allow it. It's shocking that America allows it, but we are where we are.
[00:45:54] Speaker B: Well, many things. Yeah. Are allowed because the regulatory system is so messed, you know, in a lot of ways. But it sounds like, I mean, you need. You need an entrepreneur with some vision who could, you know, and sufficiently deep pockets to say, well, I open a chain of kava bars across the country. You know, that may be a viable business model or not. I mean, I'm the last person to ask about that, but it seems that it could have potential, and that would be a way to get it out to people in the right context and with, you know, the right quality control and all that, and also spread the message of what a.
You know, what a useful plant this is as an alternative to alcohol. I mean, that's the biggest economic opportunity, I think, right now, because a lot of younger people, it's becoming fashionable not to drink right in younger people, but everybody. Well, I can't say that again, I'm not the right person to ask, but a lot of people like a slightly altered state for enjoyment. It's not that they're against that, it's that they're against the health. Uh, yeah, with alcohol. So.
[00:47:21] Speaker A: And the regrets that come with alcohol.
[00:47:23] Speaker B: Yeah, there. There's a demographic out there for people looking for something that is an alternative to alcohol that. But, yeah. Threw you up, you know.
[00:47:34] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It kind of just needs to hit that, like, that point where it's socially known in America, where you see it on tv, even your influencers are talking about kava and drinking it, where just. It's in the people's psyche and it's in front of them being like, hey, this is Kava. It's no longer just your kind of slightly weird friend saying, hey, you guys should all drink this. Come on. Why are you drinking this? No, it's so much better than alcohol. You don't understand. And then they think you're a little crazy for being like, no, in ten years, this will be all over. Just wait.
[00:48:14] Speaker B: It's very possible. I mean, it's the same thing that has faced any of these sort of recreational stimulants. I mean, coffee was vilified. Coffee was made illegal back in the day because the coffee houses were centers for revolutionary discord, rabble rouse. I don't think cava presents that problem because everybody is so mellowed out, you know, that it's not exact. If you're gonna run, they might get.
[00:48:48] Speaker A: Too mellow out, though.
[00:48:49] Speaker B: No, not the drug, you know, to run a revolution. But if you want to just relax and enjoy, and then it's. It's perfect, you know?
[00:49:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree with that. And just see, you know, that one day someone will get it right on how to sell kava in the. In a respectful manner that can then expand it. There are, again, quite a few number of people out on the west coast that do have good kava bars. They do have good missions. They have slight misunderstandings, but there's always going to be misunderstandings that no one can always agree upon, but they're still very agreeable. Um, and hopefully they will expand and kind of get kava in front of more people. I know there was a kava bar that was at Coachella. I don't know if they were actually at the venue or at some other venue, but they're at, you know, a very popular event. So it is starting to expand slowly. But surely it's unfortunate that the kratom is tied to the larger part of the expansion, but the other side is starting to prevail. So. Glad to see that.
[00:50:09] Speaker B: But the ethical, avid companies that are not marketing kratom, if they could overcome their minor differences in form, like a trade association, effectively, and maybe that's what you're trying to do.
It seems like with many of these things, Kolka is a good example. Kava, it's all about education. You know, these choices are available.
There are appropriate ways and inappropriate ways to use them.
I mean, I'm not a believer that it's useful to ban any substance because that doesn't work, you know?
[00:50:53] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:50:53] Speaker B: And a substance. You've created a black market for it, and you've created a market for people who are very sort of inclined just to overstep the bounds of the law just because they can. They see it as a challenge. But it seems to be if these industries that are doing this on the west coast, if they could somehow pool their resources to create effectively an educational effort to add, collaborate with them and sort of push these less ethical entrepreneurs out of the picture.
[00:51:36] Speaker A: Yeah, that's kind of exactly what we're trying to do at the international cop organization.
I can't really speak on behalf of it because I'm not like a director on it, but I'm good friends with the director on it, so I know his mission. And that's why I speak so highly of it, because I really do trust guy. He has been into Kaaba for more years than I have and knows everyone and every. Everything about it. So I do trust that again, that one day that we will succeed in kind of educating the people. Because I like. You don't. I don't like bands. I don't want to see credum band. I just want that education that Kapha and Kratom don't need to be together.
[00:52:20] Speaker B: Right.
[00:52:20] Speaker A: You can enjoy your kratom in the ways you enjoy it, but just be educated on why you're enjoying it and what its effects are and what it can do, as well as be educated on kava, and just see the differences between the two distinctly instead of conflating the two as a kava kratom drink that you get at your gas station, because that's what we're seeing on social media, is people getting addicted to kava. And it's a kava kratom drink, and they're getting on social media saying, I'm addicted to this. And they show it's kava. They talk about it like it's kava, and it's like, oh, that's the kratom.
[00:52:58] Speaker B: Well, again, that's. That's where it comes down to education. You know, we have so many choices.
You know, we exist in a society that is basically saturated with drugs, you know, of all kinds, legal and illegal. And, you know, and people have a plethora of choices in terms of the substances they choose to use, how they use them, how they choose to use them. What they don't have is good education.
And I always thought that education, drug education is the solution of these, to these things, but it has to be real drug education, you know, drug education in the schools, as I found out when I taught courses, you know, is basically a joke. You know, I mean, it's. It's not about informing people about how to use these substances, that the entire message is, don't use them. You know, oh, this is like telling teenagers, you know, don't have sex. I mean, come on, you know, theyre young people. Theyre full hormones. Theyre interested in sex. Theyre going to have sex. There are reasonable ways to go about that. And the same with choices for different psychotropic substances that you might take, of which we have dozens available in our daily lives and many more if we make an effort.
So I hope some of these solutions will emerge over time. Glad to hear that you're working on it. And, yeah, it's an important plant, and I hope its benefits are not lost in this confused situation.
[00:54:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I definitely wish to see that kava and its traditional use and its traditional aspects of how I can benefit you are what prevail, and it's not this current state where it's just, there's a lot of infighting going on right now in the Kaaba community, and it all revolves around the substance. I keep bringing up kratom, unfortunately. And, yeah, it's just like, there's no institution that that is, like, official, you know, kind of say, like, you have the FDA and they look after food, drugs, and then you have the ATF that looks over alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. But I almost like to think there needs to be a cava kratom cannabis institution that is democratically or democratically formed, that represents the current administrations in the, you know, us government that's federal and can kind of look over, you know, these, these alternative substances that are, people are going to continue using. They're not going to go away, but they need some sort of larger, you know, backing where the ATF has at least some loose rules that, you know, make it so that FDA is not involved. And maybe this kava kratom cannabis, or maybe kava kratom cannabis gets put on, tacked onto the ATF. It's.
But no one in the government's thinking about this.
[00:56:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, if they really do move forward with changing scheduling of cannabis, which looks like they're going to do that would be a great opportunity. I mean, I don't expect it will happen because it would require that they think intelligently and thoughtfully about how to approach it, and they're not very good at that. But what makes sense, obviously, is exactly what you said. Create a special category, maybe under ATF, maybe under the FDA for these recreational psychopharmaceuticals that are not alcohol but that people are using. Maybe. And so you could create it around cannabis, kratom and kava, you know, none of which are alcohol, none of which are particularly highly, widely used, you know, except for cannabis.
And then if coca, if the regulatory status of coca also changes, they could be part of this, so.
[00:57:48] Speaker A: Or psilocybin. Mushrooms.
[00:57:50] Speaker B: Yeah, mushrooms. Yeah. Is a different one, but it's kind of different, too, because it's something that it requires special circumstances to take it.
[00:58:01] Speaker A: Yeah. It would be. Yeah.
[00:58:03] Speaker B: Recreationally, but you need to, you know.
[00:58:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Education needs to be higher. Yeah.
[00:58:08] Speaker B: All that can be used without it isn't going to completely, you know, demolish your space time reality, but do need to be regulatory frameworks that are realistic of these things that give people opportunities to use these substances in ways that are satisfied and not hazardous, etcetera.
[00:58:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And that when you go to another state, it's the same, you know, know that the product is consistent.
[00:58:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:58:47] Speaker A: And also the testing, that's the thing that you see in cannabis is, you know, there's not a federal institution that is looking over these cannabis testing, same as the kava testing, same as the kratom testing. These labs can essentially decide what they want to say. It's. Yeah, literally go to a lab and be like, they'll say, well, what. What do you expect out of this? Is how they word it. And they'll tack on a fee to. To make it show all pretty to the PDF that you share.
[00:59:19] Speaker B: Right.
[00:59:20] Speaker A: So if there was some sort of larger institution that had, you know, the.
[00:59:25] Speaker B: Federal backing which is anything like the market that cannabis has, you know, which I don't think that's going to happen. But if it did then you would see labs cropping up all over the place and knock them all. Then it would be just a different thing because economies of scale, you know, make it different but, well, it's an ongoing process. I'm happy that you're involved in it and I appreciate your taking some time to share the current situation with us.
[01:00:03] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you for having me. That was an excellent conversation. That gave a lot of insight to me too and hopefully gave some insight to yourself and the viewers. So thank you.
[01:00:13] Speaker B: Very good.
[01:00:14] Speaker A: Thank you again.
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