Episode Transcript
[00:00:13] Speaker A: Welcome to Brain Forest Cafe with Dennis McKenna.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Dr. Michael Co, PhD, is an applied ecologist and ethobiology research fellow at the French National Institute for Research and Development and Mediterranean Institute of Biodiversity and Ecology in Marseille, France. Michael is working to help promote the revitalization of ethnobiology at academic institutions in the United States, to help provide a global synthesis on the sustainability and resilience of non timber forest products, and to help indigenous land efforts aiming to facilitate sustainable ayahuasca management in the peruvian Amazon. That was the focus of his PhD research at the University of Hawaii. I've been friends and a mentor of Michael for many years. He has been very important to the McKenna Academy, participated in our ESPD 55 symposium in May 2022, and we'll put a link to his presentation on the podcast website.
We're delighted that Michael could join us across several time zones, and we're extremely happy to have him on the program. Michael, welcome to the Brain Forest Cafe.
[00:01:42] Speaker A: Thank you, Dennis. It's an honor and a privilege. I'm so happy to be a part of this. So thank you very much.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: Well, you're certainly one of my former students. I sort of poisoned your mind at an early stage, and you've not recovered, and you've, know, really taken the bit in whatever the term is. You've gone with it. You have really made your own mark now in ethnobiology. So it's always rewarding to me, satisfying in some ways to see somebody like you who really gets it. And I had a little role in nudging you along the way. And now one of my best experiences of being a teacher, which I'm basically a teacher at heart, is that people come to me as students and they end up as friends and colleagues. And you are both, Michael. You're a wonderful friend, and you are the next generation of ethnobiologists. So thank you for joining us.
[00:02:51] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you. And speaking of that, it's just such an honor and a privilege. I remember reading some of your early works as an undergraduate student, fresh into the world of ethnobiology, and had a lot of aspirations to learn as much as possible. And I remember reading several profound papers that you wrote. The therapeutic potential of ayahuasca in 2004, which caught my radar. The work that you did on the Wasca project in 1993 that was published in Brazil. And then something even that spoke very near and dear to my heart, was ayahuasca and human destiny. Dennis, I know it took great courage, especially for someone like yourself, to reveal that much, because it was somewhat of a sidestep, know, the traditional academic approach and your life's work, talking about ayahuasca from a pharmacological perspective and a botanical perspective, but truly, it's a masterpiece in itself, I think so. And really revealing some of the wisdom that you've gained throughout your life from researching the medicine and from your own personal experiences. So I think you having me here is such an honor and a privilege. And I feel like I'm standing on the shoulders of a huge giant, which would be yourself and many others who have led the way. And so it's just a wonderful opportunity to be here and share this with you.
[00:04:33] Speaker B: We are both standing on the shoulders of giants who have passed on, but they're very much mean. They are the foundation. People like Richard Schultes obviously combined people like that. And thank you for the plug on ayahuasca and human destiny. It certainly was not a scientific paper, although it was published in the Journal of Psychoactive Drugs, I believe. And it was written from the broadest perspective possible, which is that ayahuasca and these sacred psychoactive plants, these psychedelic plants, are really coevolutionary partners with us. They have an impact on the evolution of consciousness and the evolution of the human species.
That's the broadest context. And then we focus in on the plants themselves and the chemistry and the pharmacology, their cultural roles, their cultural integration by different cultures in different contexts. But really on the 30,000 foot level, these are symbiotic partners with humanity, and they do impact human destiny. I believe that these things are catalysts to open our minds to our relationship with nature. They remind us of that. And ayahuasca and mushrooms are kind of the two that are leading the charge. So after you finished your work at the University of Minnesota, you went to the University of Hawaii, you completed master's degree there.
[00:06:14] Speaker A: And the PhD, actually, to correct the trajectory, actually started off at the University of Hawaii at Mandoa. I got my bachelor's in ethnobotany back when there was still a program, and then completed my master's and my phd there. It was an interesting time in the field because I became one of the last cohorts of students to go through the undergraduate program in ethnobotany before the program was unfortunately shut down. And since then, there hasn't been a revitalization of ethnobotany or ethnobiology as a whole in Hawaii, which know quite unfortunate, given the location of Hawaii being an incredible place for biodiversity and conservation and cultural knowledge. But I'm hopeful that someday there may be a spark of inspiration to reinstitute, or at least inspire more ethnobiology related courses and programs throughout academic institutions across the US.
This is something that has just been surprising over the years to see such a decline in support in these academic institutions of this embodiment of knowledge, especially given the state of the world that we're in. We depend on natural resources and plants, animals, fungi, for everything that we have for us to survive as a species. I think ultimately, one of the greatest lessons that we can learn through all of this, and something that I feel that maybe some of the teacher plants have inspired in a lot of people, is that we need to reconcile our relationship with nature and ultimately ourselves, and to learn to be a more loving and balanced species, and that we need to have a more balanced coexistence between humanity and nature. And this is something that I think ethnobiology in itself is a wonderful platform to highlight and to bring into the minds of young people and obviously academic institutions as well. We need more ethnobiologists as it is. Without up and coming students and up and coming generations, we lose an entire embodiment of knowledge, a scientific way of thinking, and all of the diverse skill sets that many ethnobiologists have built up over time. I think it's just been quite fascinating. I wouldn't be an ethnobiologist today if it wasn't for plants inspiring me to do so. Ayahuasca being one of the greatest catalysts for that, completely changing the trajectory of my life. And so I have a lot to say about that from a personal experience. But I also know that ethnobiology extends far beyond just the teacher plants and psychoactive plants and mushrooms, psilocybin and so on and so forth. It's a wide ranging discipline, and I think, how much does humanity really hold in terms of the knowledge for survival and a balanced coexistence with nature?
[00:09:51] Speaker B: I can echo. I agree with everything you say.
Know I have a soft spot also for the University of Hawaii Department of Botany. I got my master's degree there, and I was so happy when you started that program, because it was like I could participate vicariously in your experience there. And then when they decided to discontinue the program, I was really very disappointed. And I'm disappointed in general by the administrative decisions and the short sightedness that is leading to the discontinuation of these programs, not only in Hawaii. It's particularly sad for Hawaii, because it's the one area left, one of few areas left in the states where traditional medicine is very much still alive. It's part of the life of the people.
All of the issues around climate change, decimation of species, loss of traditional knowledge, all of these treasures of the earth and humanity's knowledge is kind of encapsulated in Hawaii. Hawaii is kind of encapsulated example of what's going on all over the world. We are forgetting these, and if we forget the knowledge that can never be replaced.
Species are disappearing and the habitats are disappearing, and all of the things that should be emphasized if we want to deal with the change in the planet. Indigenous people have been around for hundreds of thousands of years, millennia. They know a thing or two about relate to nature. We should be listening to those people, preserve what they know, and integrate that with what we think we know. And it's just very dismaying, and we need to try to do something about it. We need to encourage administrators and academic institutions who are not blinded by what is happening, encourage them to really try to foster ethnobiology programs and people like yourself. You are the new generation of ethnobotanists. Ethnobiologists is now the term because, as you see, it's not limited to plants. It's about humanity's relationship to life. You are the current generation, and there needs more people like you, and there need to be know. When we started the Mckenna academy, we were hoping to bring you on as director of ethnobiology. And we still have aspirations to that, but know is difficult. But you were not discouraged. You went out and you found this position in France. I don't know much about it, but your commitment to the discipline is really very inspiring. I mean, you're persistent, and it takes persistence, and you're committed. You want to tell us a little bit about what you're doing in your current postdoc work? Sure.
[00:13:14] Speaker A: And I guess we should also, for your listeners, really define ethnobiology. Right. It's the interdisciplinary study between human societies, organisms and their environment, organisms being plant animals and fungi. And what I'm doing now in France really is doing a global meta analysis on how people all over the world are actively managing what are known as non timber forest products. So these are plants, species that are harvested, not for timber. Right. And when we look at all of the major plants in the world, we have over 80% of the world's population that rely on plants for medicine, for example, as a primary source of health care. And there are food plants, and there are plants that are used for thatching of roofs and traditional housing, and all of the myriad of uses that plants or animal species or fungi species can provide for humanity. And what I am doing is essentially a global metaanalysis on the sustainability of nontember forest products, utilizing different ecological methods of assessment on how harvesting is impacting these populations of plant species over time. And then also documenting the local knowledge that's available in some of these manuscripts that will be useful for people that are aiming to help with conservation efforts or restoration efforts of species that may be declining over time. So that's been the primary focus of my postdoctoral research here. And in addition to that, I guess something that we should really pay homage to is that, like you said, the discipline of ethnobiology as a whole, what it means for humanity and many of the people that have built this legacy of knowledge. When I think of ethnobiology in itself, how can we not think of Richard Evan Schultes?
He's probably single handedly responsible for so much incredible work and inspiring generations of people after him to examine these relationships between people, organisms, and their environment. Obviously, Schultes as a continuation of Spruce, who was his inspiration in itself. But think about this. We have Schultes'students Homer Prinkley, who had the botanical discovery of psychotria verdes, without whom we wouldn't know about the admixture plants for ayahuasca. We have Wade Davis, whose life and life's work is incredibly influential and has been for a long time. And celebrating the cultures of the world and the profoundness of cultural diversity and what it means to be a living being in this life with nature. The works of him and Tim Ploughman. I mean, the incredible work that they did for Hoca, for identifying various species of coca and the importance of its ritual. And ultimately, I think, the work that's being done to, I guess, reintegrate the understanding of traditional use of these sacred plants, separate from the drug cultures and the people that have extracted them for material gain and so on and so forth. But actually highlighting the importance of tradition and the stewards of these knowledge systems. And I think Wade Davis and Tim Ploughman are just incredible sources of inspiration for anybody who has read one river. I know. I myself have been extremely inspired by that know in highlighting Schultes'travels and Wade and Tim Plowman's travels throughout the know through their youth and discovery. It's just quite a profound and amazing contribution, I think, to any aspiring student looking to learn about ethnobiology as a whole. And then we have Paul Cox, another student of know, who has done incredible work with his botanical discoveries in America, Samoa, leading to pharmacological discoveries of prostratin, which has been highly successful and potential therapeutic treatments for HIV. And then his further work looking at treating neurodegenerative diseases like ALS and other natural remedies. For that as well, we have Michael Baglik, another student of Schultes, and his profound experiences and working at the New York Botanical Garden. And many of his students, like Ina Vanderbrook, who's now leading a forefront program in ethnopharmacology, now in the University of the West Indies. We have Mark Plockin and his incredible work with the, you know, and then many others, I think, that have long been inspired by know Bradley Bennett, Cassandra Quave, who's done incredible work with antimicrobial resistant strains of bacteria. Looking at some natural treatments as well. I mean, so many contemporary ethnobiologists today have been spawned out of this incredible inspiration from the giants and the founding forefathers like yourself and many of Schultes'students, and it's just been a tremendous journey to rediscover everyone's life work and be able to see the trajectory of the discipline and how it has grown and how is expanded over.
[00:19:30] Speaker B: These are. This is the older generation, sometimes the oldest, like Schultes, who traces his mentorship back to people like Richard Spruce and Oaks Ames. But then Schultes and many of the people that you mentioned have fostered this new generation, of which I am one. I'm one of the old members of the new generation, you're one of the younger members of the new generation. But it's pretty much the same cohort, as you said, as you pointed out, these resources, this indigenous knowledge, is so important for something as in some ways it's important, but something as mundane as drug discovery. So many medicines are important now in medicine, came ultimately from nature. 80% of the world's population still relies on traditional medicine for their basic health care needs. We can't dispense with this.
There is a tendency now in biology programs to focus on the molecular, to focus on what you can do in test tubes. People need to get out and look at nature. If you claim to be a biologist, you have to look at nature. I was appalled some time ago when I visited the UBC botany department in British Columbia. That's where I got my PhD. I was talking to some of the graduate students there. And when it comes to talking about molecular biology. They were right on it. When it's talking about actually going out and looking at plants and spending time in the field, it was a foreign concept. Why would I want to do that? Why would I want to step out of the lab? They were just baffled by the very idea which you, in fact, now here you are, you're doing this meta analysis, you're doing a lot of data analysis. This is very important, I think, to assess the global situation with regard to sustainability and non timber resources. And this is incredibly important work that you're, you know, but I know your heart is in the know. Of course, your PhD work was major field work in the Amazon. Much more difficult than any field work I did.
Hanging out with curaderos and learning the language and collecting the knowledge and your heart's in the field. And we'd all love, in some ways we'd all love to be in the field. That's not to say that the work you're doing now is not important. It is very important. Even if mostly you're at a computer and you're running statistics and you're running models and so on, but you're creating the knowledge base that is going to be important in terms of if we ever do get to the place of trying to revive these programs, because they shouldn't be shutting these ethobiology programs down, they should be expanding them.
Every university should have programs in this, this petition, this link that you put up in the chat box. I urge everyone to please go to that site, sign this petition. Let's enlist our friends and people that get the importance of this to really make a bit of a ruckus and kind of advocate for the re resurrection or the reinstitution or the implementation of these ethnobiology programs in academics or wherever they might mean. In some ways, it's dismayed to me that Amazon, for example, and the biodiversity that is there is often couched in terms know well, there's money to be made, there's bucks to be made discovering new drugs, new medicines and that sort of thing. That's true. There are trillions of undiscovered drugs in the Amazon. You can't quantify these things in dollars and cents. That's a part of it. And often that's the only thing that's considered the bigger picture, is that again, it is this context in which we live.
One species within the context of global species and the most dangerous and destructive species ever to appear on the planet. And the plant teachers, they don't call them plant teachers for nothing.
What we learn from these plant teachers, these sacred plants, is how to be better humans if we will only listen. I mean, that kind of the thrust of the idea of that paper ayahuasca human destiny, the time is now. It has to happen right now. We don't have 50 years. 50 years from now, we'll be able to look back and say, well, we stepped up and we did it. We stopped it. We being, I'm talking the collectivity of planet and the people that care about this. Or we'll have to say we failed. And basically there is no nature anymore. We've destroyed nature. We destroy ourselves.
[00:25:20] Speaker A: You're right. Exactly.
It's exactly right. If we destroy nature, we destroy ourselves. And I think this is something that we need to really be honest about and take a good look in the mirror. I think a lot of what society has lost, at least in the contemporary world and developed cultures, is really the understanding that we are not separate from nature. I mean, we've built up so much conveniences to comfort ourselves and to be able to have so many things accessible to us, like our groceries, our transportation, our houses and so on and so forth, these comforts that we've built up. But in all reality, we depend on nature for everything that we have, the oxygen we breathe, the clothes that we wear, all food that we consume, regardless of dietary preferences, everything that keeps the homeostatic mechanisms in place that allow our planet and all species to exist, is heavily dependent on the successful relationship that we have with nature.
And this is something that should be highlighted in all academic disciplines all over the world, really, is that these cultures of the world, these indigenous cultures of the world and local communities, they are the stewards of the remaining knowledge that hold the keys to how we can live in balance, in a balanced coexistence between humanity and nature.
The cultures that know how to grow their own food, how to hunt, how to make their own clothes, how to be self sufficient and to be able to provide for their communities, for their friends and families. I think there's so many ways that the discipline of ethnobiology could really highlight the beauty of the diversity of ways of living and the diversity of ways of relating to the natural world. It's not to say that one way of living is better than another. It's just that the diversity of ways hold the keys to how we can have a balance. There's so much beauty in the contemporary and developed societies and the knowledge and the technology that we have. Yet at the same time, there's a trade off and there's things that we have built up that leave us in a very fragile situation. And I think we've seen that with certain situations that come up, like the global pandemic, for example, where there were potentially challenges for getting food and resources to certain areas. And when people were locked up for a period of time, at least for myself, during that time, while having the privilege of living in a tropical environment in Hawaii, thinking to myself, do I really know how to grow all the food that I need to survive if the grocery stores cannot provide? Do I know how to hunt and really track game to be able to provide food for myself or for my family or for my friends? What happens if I cannot do these things? Or even the medicine that would be key to helping us stay healthy, which all of these keys to living and to being able to survive and thrive are all in nature. And this is something that many traditional cultures hold the keys to. And ultimately, they are the stewards of this knowledge. And this knowledge still exists in many of these cultures, and they should be honored and celebrated.
[00:29:14] Speaker B: It's disappearing, and the are disappearing now the habitats are disappearing. But you're absolutely right. You know, people that sort of assess the global geopolitical situation and try to think ahead, they predict that basically within a foreseeable time frame, civilization is going to collapse. What we call civilization. The infrastructural mechanisms that keep this civilization going are unsustainable, and it's going to collapse. And it may collapse very quickly once it starts. So if there's anybody left that's equipped to deal with the post civilization situation, it's indigenous people, because they've been living outside that bubble for thousands of years anyway. And they've been learning, they've been using nature sustainably. But if this knowledge is lost, then we are lost. They are the stewards of this knowledge, and we have to do what we can to collaborate with the indigenous people. It's not up to us. The know, advanced quote unquote people to protect or, I mean, that's too patronizing.
That's a completely wrong way of talking. I was thinking about what Wayne Davis said. That word he said often says that really impacted me. This populations, indigenous peoples are not failed versions of us.
They do not aspire to be like us. They have not failed in any way.
They live fully satisfied lives every bit as rewarding and complex as any technological person in the so called developed countries. I mean, their focus is to foster their way of life, and they don't aspire to be prisoners of technology. Or people like us in some way. And in fact, they look at our culture and they shake their head. In some ways. They say, you guys don't get it.
The author of the book the Falling Sky, I don't know if people have read that, but that's another interesting book that people should read. It's the perspective of a Yanobami shaman, Miguel Yawanawa, I believe his name is the falling sky, and he know we call you the people of the merchandise. You're the people of the merchandise, and we can't relate to that. Merchandise is not important to them. And then people will want. Don't you want ipods and cell phones and that sort of thing? Well, yes and no, but not really. So just think that trying to understand the context of these things and learn from the people that have this knowledge and also the plants themselves. And this is where psychedelics can be such an important catalyst.
I often say psychedelics are medicines for the soul, and they work on the individual soul, the collective soul, the societal soul, ultimately the species soul. They are medicines that could heal the planet, but not if we drive them into extinction.
That's why one reason we have to be so careful to ensure that these things remain sustainable. And from your own personal experiences in the Amazon, you've witnessed the impact of, for example, ayahuasca tourism. And I've organized retreats in the Amazon, and I've seen people benefit tremendously. But I also wonder if that's not really a good thing, and maybe that isn't a good thing. Maybe that's not the right model. What do you think about that?
[00:33:41] Speaker A: I think there's a balance, Dennis. I mean, I remember one time either hearing a talk or maybe reading a paper of yours where there was a discussion, I would like to say, like, work from yourself. Eduardo Luna and his collaborations with Amaringo, with the book Ayahuasca visions, and really inspiring this reinterest or this reintegration into the global sphere of understanding some of the phenomenon, at least the artistic expression of ayahuasca and then yourself with the pharmacology and the botany of it all. I think at one point you were mentioning that a lot of these traditions were facing extinction in themselves. So in a way, the work of previous work from yourself, Schultes, and all of these people that had a huge impact in kind of highlighting this traditional wisdom for the western world. And perhaps as a result, ayahuasca tourism begins, or at least in some way, people become interested about it. I know the writing of William Burroughs, for example, had an impact. Reichel Domatov I mean, amazonian cosmos, I mean, all these pioneering works had to have some kind of influence on the culture of the western world and their interest in these medicines for personal healing, spiritual exploration and so on and so forth. But I think it may be a double edged sword, if you think about it, where if some of these traditions may have been falling to the wayside where people were less interested in the traditional ways at the time, or at least maybe not practicing them as regularly, and then maybe as there was an increased interest, people became more interested in what the elders had been doing for a long time and picking up the traditions again for their continuation.
It's an interesting dialogue, I think, that humanity and ayahuasca is having and how it all is playing out, wouldn't you say?
[00:36:03] Speaker B: Yes, I would.
It is, as you say, a double edged sword. It's like ayahuasca may be one of the major catalysts that could shift collectively our perspective on nature.
Enormous know, and it's now become a global phenomenon. I mean, ayahuasca, there are places in Hawaii that have higher densities of ayahuasca growing than in the know. So that's mean. It's interesting that whatever happens to the Amazon, ayahuasca has engineered an escape for know, it will survive in these other regions. But so many people could benefit from ayahuasca, both for medical reasons and just as an educational catalyst. But you can't make enough ayahuasca for a billion people.
That's the issue and the issue of sustainability.
So we have to find some way to responsibly ensure that these sacred medicines are available and sustainable and they can be produced sustainably.
In my rants and raves, I've often said the model that we've been following so far is take people to the medicine. People go to the Amazon to have these experiences, they go to Africa to have know they do that. What we should be doing is bringing the medicine to the people.
Work sustainably with indigenous groups to create sustainable supplies that can then be exported to treatment centers and ritual centers in North America and Europe and so on. Of course, you have to change the laws, but that's know and that may be the way to do it. So instead of people taking the people to the medicine, bring the medicine to the people.
That requires that you foster relationships with the indigenous people, but you don't destroy their culture and tourism, for whatever you might think about it. Sure, North Americans, Europeans, gringos of all sorts go down there. They bring some economic benefits. They bring fat wallets, and they do help these villages in that sense. But it's an uneven exchange.
It doesn't go to the people in the village so much as it does to one or two superstar ayahuascaros that happen to be in the village. Not that these are bad people. I mean, anyone would be responsible. So we have to get more in tune with the fact that this is a collective effort. We've all got to work together. One of the things that is encouraging to me in some ways is that mushrooms, even though we are, it's biopiracy too. We're borrowing from indigenous tradition. By the nature of the way mushrooms are, we can grow lots and lots of mushrooms. There is no supply issue.
You could grow it by the gigaton. And so that may ultimately be the global psychedelic, and it seems like it's becoming that other of these plants and so on. We have to be respectful enough, and we have to be conscious enough to say that we'll just leave those to the indigenous people because they're so hard to produce sustainably. Peyote is probably the best example.
I think we have a moral obligation if we're not indigenous, don't take know, leave it alone, let them have it. Similar considerations, not quite as much, but to some degree also apply to Wachuma. People think there's no sustainability issues with respect to know the San Pedro cactus, but there are pressures on that species.
Bufo toads in the sonoran desert, another example. Sure, it's very hip to go to these places and smoke toad venom puts a lot of pressure on this species.
There's no indigenous tradition that you're emulating. There's evidence that there's a lot of sort of made up traditions, but basically there's no evidence that this was ever used traditionally, and people should. Many, many plants have five methoxy DMT, and it can be sustainably harvested from anodinanthra, for example, very high in that substitute. You don't have to torture toads and drive them into extinction to get your five mao.
As you and I know, DMT and fibathoxy DMT are quite widespread in plants.
Potentially every ecosystem could identify and cultivate plants that are sources of these tryptamines, because they're so common, and they occur in hundreds of species, if not thousands of species. So anyway, that's one of the issues we have to grasp with. We have to really try to partner with indigenous people to address these problems.
Back to what we were talking about before, which is that these indigenous people have been doing this for thousands of years.
They know how to do it. We would do well to listen to them.
[00:42:07] Speaker A: I agree, and I think there's possibility for, and I'm hopeful for a shared knowledge system. I think there's a lot that science in understanding the ecology, the life cycle of these plants and the toad, for example, as well, and how we can use local and indigenous knowledge combined with scientific knowledge to successfully develop partnerships with local and indigenous communities and inform each other, share our knowledge system, so that way we can successfully work together to ensure that these plant species persist for generations and are able to persist regardless of the global pressures that may be on them currently. And the question remains is, well, how do we develop these responsible and reciprocal relationships with the stewards of this knowledge, indigenous peoples and local communities in South America, for example, with ayahuasca, the communities in South America, for, and. And really honoring and respecting the traditions and the stewards for all of the knowledge that they hold and working together. I think as a community of knowledge holders from science and this local understanding of these plant and animal species, there's a lot that can be done in this area, especially in the concern for sustainability. And I'm optimistic that we can work together to do that.
[00:43:54] Speaker B: Well, I think we can.
All it takes is commitment and consciousness, and I'm willing to collaborate and understand that this is a collective effort. But kind of in the last few minutes that we have, not that we have any real serious deadline, but eventually I want to kind of focus it on some of the work that the McKinna Academy is trying to do. Because what you talked about right now, this collaboration, is exactly what we're trying to do in this biognosis program, that we're to bring indigenous knowledge and scientific knowledge together to bridge those two things. And that's why this project that we have to try to restore and digitize this herbarium in Aquitos, which I've been friends of, the curator, I've worked with him for over 50 years.
It's a treasure. It's not well funded thing, but herbarium could be the nexus that brings science and indigenous knowledge together in this area of intense biodiversity.
And we've made one documentary about this. If people can look at the McKenna Academy website, they can view the trailer at least, and we can post the entire thing about this project. We're trying to raise money to digitize the ibarium. A big goal priority of us is if we're really going to do this project, we got to have boots on the ground in ketos actually doing this, you're the major one. Our initial hope was that we could hire you to be the director of ethnobiology, go to Aquitos, and actually work with the people there to manage and create this project. We still aspire to that. It's been very difficult to raise funds. Perhaps people listen to this podcast and help us find the resources that we need. I mean, you can go to the McKenna Academy. There are buttons to donate all over the place. It's not difficult to donate to what we're doing and support this work. And if there are people listening with resources to actually fund this in a serious way, we'd like to hear from you. You can write to me at Dennis at McKenna Academy, or write to connect at McKenna Academy and people that are interested in supporting it. I encourage you to do this. Know, the total amount of investment to do this project in Aquitos is modest compared to many, even ecological restoration. We figure overall, over three to five years, it'll take about $10 million.
Sounds like a lot of money. It is a lot of money. Consider it's less than one 10th the cost of a single f 35 firefighter plane. What is an f 35 fighter plane going to do to save the planet? Not much. It may, in fact, be useful to destroy the planet. The herbarium project could be a little bit of a nexus for sustainability that could have the impact. Because if we can implement this program in Aquitos, that model can be converted, can be propagated to other institutions and other alliances with indigenous people in other parts of the world that are facing kind of the same challenges. So this is not supposed to be about a pitch for our program, but in fact, this is what we're trying to do. So people that are interested, please, this is a collective effort. And Michael is you're doing tremendous work with what you're doing. But most docs don't last forever. And if I had my druthers, and I think if you had yours, it would be to be able to return to the Amazon in a position know, adequately funded, with not just your salary, but the resources to actually do this.
[00:48:27] Speaker A: And I'm optimistic that as people, I think it's possible.
And I would like to use my skills to help foster restoration projects, integrated land for ayahuasca as well, and to help work with indigenous people in the communities that I've worked with in the department of Ukiele as well. The know. I think there's a lot of work that can be done, even with the churches that have been working on their efforts towards sustainability as well. I think there's a lot of knowledge that can be shared in the ecology of the species and understanding how we can work collaboratively across disciplines, across knowledge systems, from local and indigenous people and science, and obviously bionosis being an incredible platform to be able to do this and highlight that there's just so much to be done. I mean, Amazon itself is worthy of a lifetime of work for teams of ethnobiologists and people that are interested in playing a significant role in highlighting the diversity of biological plants that are essential to all life, and ultimately the cultures and the stewards that still retain the essential knowledge of how to live successfully in this balanced coexistence between humanity and nature. It's undoubtedly an incredible hotspot, at least for cultural and biological diversity, and worthy of definitely all of our efforts to make sure that everything persists.
The knowledge holders that are getting very old, facing their life stages, end of life stages, all of the incredible mentors that have inspired ethnobiology as an academic discipline expanding beyond psychedelics and sacred plants. But all of these knowledge systems, be it rooted in science or local and indigenous knowledge, really hold the keys on how humanity can work collaboratively and successfully in really managing our ways of living in a way that we can promote and foster the appreciation for life and nature in a balanced way. I'm so thankful.
[00:50:56] Speaker B: And the elders are the keepers.
Wade Davis famously said, when a medicine man dies, it's as though a library has burned know. And the person that we work with at the herbarium, Amazon in Aquitos, he's a unique individual, but he's not a medicine man. He's actually a scientist with a broad interdisciplinary background. So he is 1ft in traditional medicine, 1ft in science, and that's very unique. He bridges these two worlds and he is that library. And that's one of our main projects, is to try to document what he knows, because he knows a tremendous amount and he never writes anything down that, not his mindset. So we want to do, as part of this documentary series, we want to do a series of videography interviews, just interviews with him talking about plants and his life and what he knows about the plants and his experiences. And that's a big part of the biogosis agenda is to preserve this, because Juan Ruiz, his name is Juan Ruiz. He is a little younger than few years, a couple of years younger than I am, and I'm no spring chicken. I'm getting up there. And Juan is also not going to be around forever. So this is urgent. And similarly, to try and preserve the knowledge of other people. This is the main thing. It all runs on information.
And every plant in that herbarium, sure, there's the sacred plants, there's the medicinal plants, there's all of these things. This is all important. But every specimen in that herbarium has a story behind it. Yes, we want to bring the stories to the world. And that's the way to do it, is to link traditional knowledge and scientific knowledge and to a place where these plants are and then make that a virtual representation so that anyone, anywhere in the world could look at those collections and use them in whatever way they want. So that's a long term goal.
Yeah. And with any luck, Michael, you'll be able to mean, I think you should just. It's very great what you're doing, and I hope know it's satisfying. It sounds like it is. Of course, yeah. And after you get done with your postdoc, either there'll be positions available in different academics, or we'll be able to hire you and bring you on board because you got to make a living. You can't do this for free, much as you'd love to.
[00:54:04] Speaker A: Well, I'm confident that we can work together. Regardless of where I'm at professionally, Dennis, my knowledge and everything that I have is really to support all of us and to support you, especially because you've been such a wonderful person beyond just a mentor and the entire McKenna Academy. I love what you guys are doing. I believe in your mission, and I fully support you. And I'm hopeful and optimistic that our collaborations will continue for many years to come.
It's definitely something that's near and dear to my heart. And I'm grateful for the opportunity and just to connect with you and share our stories and the excitement for ethnobiology and all of the beauty that the cultures of the world have.
[00:54:57] Speaker B: Well, we're grateful to have you, Michael. As a friend and supporter of the academy and a colleague, we're very grateful to have this alliance. And you're right, it will continue no matter what. But I think that's a good note to end this on.
Anything else? Any other burning questions?
[00:55:22] Speaker A: No burning questions. I mean, I thank you so much for this opportunity to connect and share, and I appreciate everything, Dennis. So thank you once again.
[00:55:33] Speaker B: I believe you have a McKenna Academy email, people, can you at. Michael at McKenna Academy?
[00:55:40] Speaker A: Yes. And you can find me on Instagram at plant stewards.
[00:55:45] Speaker B: Okay. Don't drive the man crazy, but feel he's busy he's got shit going on, but he's happy to hear from people. And I'm the same am. We're all busy, but, Michael, thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom and everything else with honor and a great conversation.
[00:56:11] Speaker A: Thank you, Dennis. I look forward to doing it again sometime.
[00:56:14] Speaker B: All right. Have a good weekend, my friend.
[00:56:17] Speaker A: You too, my friend.
Thank you for listening to brain forest cafe with Dennis McKenna. Find us online at McKenna Academy.
