Episode Transcript
[00:00:13] Speaker A: Welcome to Brainforest Cafe with Dennis McKenna.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: So it's a great pleasure for me to invite Josh Bloom to the McKenna Academy Brain Forest Cafe podcast.
Josh has been a steady supporter of our initiatives and a friend to the academy for a long time, so we're just delighted to have him on the show today.
Joshua Bloom was born and raised in Hackney, London. To a filipino mother and jewish father, he grew up in a culturally rich area, Sandswich, between Hackney's infamous murder Mile and Stamford Hill, home to Europe's largest ultra orthodox jewish community with over 100,000 residents.
Much of his early years were spent exploring the local parks and Hackney marshes Nature Reserve, where he developed a deep fascination for the flora and fauna, particularly birds.
This love for nature naturally led him to pursue studies in microbiology and genetics, driven by a desire to comprehend the inner workings of organisms at a fundamental level.
Following his university education and a stint in a genetics lab, Joshua embarked on a significant chapter in his life. For two years, he dedicated himself to working at a drug in alcohol rehab clinic in Camden, an area known for its struggles with substance abuse. Reflecting on this period, he often describes it as a PhD in real life. The experience exposed him to individuals born into tragic circumstances with little hope for a way out. It also shed light on the shortcomings of mainstream medical approaches to helping the less fortunate, sparking his interest in the potential of psychedelics for treating addiction and PTSD.
In the subsequent years, Joshua explored the world extensively, immersing himself in different cultures. He transitioned into freelance photography, focusing mainly on capturing the beauty of nature and landscapes. It was during this time that his curiosity about consciousness deepened, fueled by a couple of near death experiences and altered states of mind.
This journey culminated in the completion of a master's degree in neuroscience and psychology. Although he firmly believes that firsthand experience surpasses all, twelve years ago, Joshua made a significant life change by moving to Switzerland to pursue a career at it.
Although this choice was made for practical reasons, Joshua continued to pursue his passion by organizing conferences, retreats, and workshops. He also collaborated with charities and NGO's that share a vision for a better future in harmony with nature. Today, he is the creator of Reality in Bloom, a website and podcast that explores topics ranging from nature and consciousness to reality and psychedelics. In recent years, Joshua has taken up marathon running for health benefits and stress management.
This newfound passion, or midlife crisis as his wife would call it, has now brought him to the starting line of one of the toughest foot races on earth. The marathon de Sables, a grueling 250 kilometer race through the Sahara desert. He eagerly anticipates this mammoth challenge as he prepares to embark on this extraordinary journey later this week.
It's my pleasure to invite Josh to the brain forest cafe. Hello.
[00:04:22] Speaker A: Thank you so much for inviting me, and thanks to the intro.
[00:04:26] Speaker B: Well, thank you for coming. Thank you for furnishing that. That's a rather lengthy bio, but you've had an interesting life, and now it's come to this. And can you tell us a little bit about what made you decide to take on this incredible challenge?
[00:04:47] Speaker A: Sure.
Well, in a funny way, it's kind of connected with you and some of the people I've met through you. I took up running marathons about four years ago because running marathon was, like, on my bucket list of things to do in life, and I wasn't getting any younger. So I've run about ten marathons in the last four years, and last year I ran an ultra, which was 100. It's a completely different kind of endeavor.
You run a lot slower and you really hit the pain barrier by about 40, 50. Then after that, it's just really about the mind and battling your own mind. And I really felt, in a way, I kind of found one of my tribes through doing this.
And so how's it connected with you? I met you first. If you can cast your mind back to Sumeruna awakenings in Romania.
[00:05:52] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:05:53] Speaker A: A conference about ayahuasca organized by Howard Charing, who wrote the accidental shaman.
And it was a really great conference.
And I also met a shaman there, Mister Sakaruna, who. I drank Ayahuasca with him several times.
And almost every time that I've drank with him, I. I get visions of the desert, powerful visions of the desert, and it's become something I can't ignore. And I feel, in a way, it's like, so my father's Jewish, and my ancestors on that side were Jewish.
And I feel like the visions I've had for many years now in dreams and in ayahuasca, ceremonies are like a calling to really explore the struggle, the suffering of the Jews in the exodus, in the desert, where they were lost 40 years, surrounded on all sides by enemies that far exceeded their own number, and they managed to survive beyond all odds.
And my older brother, actually, in recent years, became Orthodox Jewish, and he had to learn Hebrew. It took four years for him to get there, and it's taken me four years to get to this level of fitness where I can finally do this ultramarathon in the desert.
And my twisted logic, perhaps, is that it would help me connect with my ancestors and their resilience, the wisdom that we carry within us. I feel it can be precipitated during extreme suffering as you endure in like an ultra marathon.
And in a way, I wrote about this in the text beneath the video as you get really hit the pain barrier. Each step ships away at the layers of conditioning and we eventually reach like a core of inner resilience and courage and wisdom.
And I feel this is what all our ancestors at some point went through. I mean, we have it so easy in this day and age, in modern times.
We forget, we become disconnected, especially as we're continuously bombarded by information, ideas and digital media and social media.
And this is a way I find to reconnect with my true self, our true inner self, that really rests at our core.
So that's been one of my methods in recent years, and I feel it really complements psychedelic work in a way, especially plant medicine work.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: So, very interesting. So this quest, this challenge that you're taking on for yourself is very personal. It's all about reconnecting and sort of reappreciating what your ancestors went through.
And yet at the same time, it's very contemporary. I mean, you're choosing to do something that most people wouldn't even consider. I mean, your resilience on every level, physical and mental and endurance, is going to be tested by this, by this marathon. You know, even though you've trained up, you're, I'm sure you're in fantastic shape still. It would be a challenge for anyone. So.
But that's the nature of shamanism. I mean, when you were talking, I was thinking, effectively, this is a shamanistic, this is a shamanistic exercise, you know, I mean, it is effectively choosing to go into another world. This will be an altered state and it won't end when the trip is over because the trip will last ten or twelve days, right. And you're going to be continuously pushing the envelope night and day. And that's incredible, Josh. I mean, you know, the determination that it must take to do this is that rather oppressive.
If I were to try to do something like this, I would last about a quarter of a mile and then I would just die.
Not kind of the opposite of you in that sense. So good for you that you're doing this. And not only are you doing it, but you're also doing it for a good cause. I mean, you've linked your efforts to supportive icers, which we all know and love, and this other NGO rainforest, which also seems to have all the ticks, the right boxes in terms of their commitment to regenerative agriculture and preserving some of these biodiverse environments and so on. So you can make this marathon work for that as well. Bring people's attention to the crises that face our planet. And you've chosen to do it in a desert and fire, which is kind of exemplary of the heat death that this planet is facing if we don't get our act straightened out. So there are multiple facets to this work that you're doing.
[00:11:45] Speaker A: Yeah. So why have I chosen Isis and rainweed forest? I guess I should talk about that point.
My son is now five years old. And often when I'm with him, I really worry that future generations, even my son, perhaps when he's my age, he really, nature will not exist as it does today.
They'll have to go further and further out to reach real nature, real wilderness settings. And for me, I was lucky. I was raised in right near the center of London. But my home, it overlooked park and marshes and I was birdwatching every day. And I was watching nature for hours every day. And I couldn't imagine growing up in a concrete jungle and not having that exposure.
Even now, my house, it overlooks a stream and a forest, and we get beavers, and I'm constantly bird watching. And for me, that is really my sanctuary. It brings me solace.
And I really struggle to think that future generations might not have that. If I personally did not have that, I think I would.
I don't know what I'd do. I certainly probably take to medication and whatnot, because nature has always had a way to liberate me, liberate me from negative rumination or stress or the stresses of everyday living. It's always been, brought me comfort and solace. And so I really, over the last years, I've really searched hard for charities and ngo's that I feel are really in line with helping nature. That in a way that resonates with me.
Let me show you something, actually. So I got this printed the other day. This is my Sahara desert cat.
[00:13:47] Speaker B: Oh, man, I see.
[00:13:51] Speaker A: And I got eye clears printed there. Can you see that?
[00:13:54] Speaker B: Oh, very good, very good.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: We've got rain, reforestation.
[00:13:59] Speaker B: Other side, wonderful.
[00:14:02] Speaker A: Synergetic press.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: And I see you've got the McKenna Academy somewhere, maybe not on your hat, but on your website, which we appreciate.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: I was actually planning to get it printed on my shirt. All the way on my shirt. But I went to the print shop and the man said, it's made of a special synthetic material that would melt at the temperatures they use for the logo printing.
[00:14:28] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: But I just really want to give a shout out to the people behind these organizations.
[00:14:35] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:14:36] Speaker A: Danny Diskin and Bianca of rain and all the people doing the groundwork replanting around the Amazon, the Amazon periphery, mainly mangrove forests at the moment.
So if you've seen the video, the fundraising video, $1 for every dollar donated, a mangrove tree is planted and nurtured to maturity.
[00:15:04] Speaker B: The rainforest group, they're approaching reforestation through mangrove. Mangrove's the best carbon sequestering plants for these environments. So I understand every dollar raised that goes to rainforest will be used to plant a mangrove tree somewhere in a peripheral situation, is that right?
[00:15:30] Speaker A: Yes. I just want to correct you. They're called rain reforest.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: Rain reforest. I'm sorry.
[00:15:37] Speaker A: Yes. And more importantly for me, I've met many reforestation projects. I have many good friends that even founded reforestation projects. But something about renry forest really struck me because they work closely with indigenous communities and traditional communities.
And I really feel that we need to work in unity with indigenous peoples who have been the shepherds of nature for hundreds of years, if not millennia.
We need to align with people that have lived in harmony of nature and really know the natural habitats or their native regions better than anyone.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: And that's where Icers is played an important role for people who don't know what Icers stands for. It's the International center for Ethnobotanical Education, Research and Service. So icers.org, they are committed to all of the things, similar things that reforest Amazon is working on, but their focus is more on preserving indigenous knowledge and some of the sacred plants that are used in tradition, in indigenous traditions, as well as providing legal defense, they have an ayahuasca legal defense fund that comes to the aid of people that have come crossways with the law when they come to Europe or the United States, well, basically, I guess Europe, to do ceremonies and they help people out. Im on the advisory board of ICeRs, have been for several years. I just cant say enough about the good work theyre doing.
Theyre working in collaboration with the Indigenous Medicine Conservation Fund and focusing on sacred plants like ayahuasca, eboga, coyote, some of the endangered plants that are part of these traditions. ICERS is committed to this. So money devoted to ICERs or the reforest Amazon, all of this is a good thing because, as you pointed out earlier, it's our estrangement from nature that is kind of, at the center of our sickness as a species and as a civilization. The fact that we've gotten separated from nature, we spend all of our time indoors looking at screens. It's important to reaffirm those connections.
And that's, that's what you're doing. That's what these organizations are doing.
And then you as an individual, you're putting yourself into nature in about the most radical way that you can right now. By doing this, you can reconnect to nature. You could go to Hawaii and sit on the beach and reconnect to nature, and that's fine. Youve chosen a much tougher way to reconnect with nature. Its going to call on every bit of your physical and mental resources to do this.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: And in a way, all the pain and torture that Im going to endure for a week is going to, in a very powerful way, kind of wash away the western conditioning, because Im just going to be out there off grid. No cell phone, no nothing digital, no cell phone. My God.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: Are you going to take that heavy hammer equipment with you?
[00:19:38] Speaker A: I got one especially for it. This one. It's going to be, just going to the sahara for a week is a lifelong dream. And seeing the stars and the sand dunes. So I couldn't possibly go without the camera.
I just wanted to add to what you said about eysears. So I met the founder of ISIRS at a conference in Italy, the science and non duality conference, about seven or eight years ago. And he showed a documentary he made about the Bwiti tribe in iboga use.
And we connected and did an interview. And next thing I know, he called me up to be their official photographer to document the indigenous rights week at the United Nations.
I asked if I could bring a friend of mine, a videographer, along who you know very well, Alex Boethius.
[00:20:38] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:20:38] Speaker A: And it was an incredible week. So ISIS were represented.
Constanza, the, from their legal team came along and, uh, Josie.
And anyway, um, there was a very powerful episode, which I feel obliged to share.
So that there was a huge auditorium, the United States nations auditorium, and it was full of like, maybe half the people were ambassadors from around the world, all suited up, dressed very smartly in western style suits. And then the other half of the room was filled with indigenous tribal leaders from around the world.
And I'll never forget, it was so powerful. Benki, one of the shamans and tribal leaders from the Ashaninka tribe, he got up on stage and he stood up and he got the whole auditorium standing thing up. And then he sang a really powerful Icarus that just pierced right through everybody's hearts. And it was so incredibly powerful.
And it just felt like, this is really what we need. We need to unite with the indigenous tribes around the world to preserve our nature, to preserve their knowledge and wisdom and ancient cultures. And this is how we need to align for the future, for our future generations, to ensure that our nature is not spoiled by our stupidity.
[00:22:20] Speaker B: Well, we're well along the way to doing that. But the conference you refer to, was that the Girona conference in 2019 or a different one? The icer?
[00:22:32] Speaker A: No, I met Ben Bendelon at the sand conference in Italy. Then we didn't speak very much, but he.
We did an interview, and he invited me to be their official photographer for that. And then again a few years later in Gerona at the World Ayahuasca conference. And once again, I joined forces with Alex Boethius, the videographer who made an incredible video to summarize the World Ayahuasca conference. And he is actually behind this fundraising video as well. It was.
[00:23:07] Speaker B: Oh, he is.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: It was his idea, and he did a terrific job.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: Wonderful.
Yes, of course, Alexander was a friend of ours, too. He recently attended a retreat that we hosted in Brazil at Wasihuasca and was a chance to get to know him. Wonderful fellow. Both he and his wife, Amelia, are, you know, committed to all of the ideals that we're committed to. And these ayahuasca conferences, these world ayahuasca forums, are incredibly valuable, even though it takes a great deal of organizing. And, you know, it's not easy to bring people in from all over the world. And you can, you know, I suppose you can criticize them, in a sense, from the perspective of, well, what's the carbon footprint putting on such a conference like this? On the other hand, I think there's an offset, because it gets the message out.
The main message from IceRs is that it's important to protect this indigenous knowledge, these indigenous practices. The plants, the habitats, and the culture cannot be separated.
If one goes, it all goes. And that's why we have to commit to try to preserve these areas where these plants grow. And yes, they are medicines, potentially, that can heal the soul of our species, but we have to be responsible stewards of these things like ayahuasca and peyote and iboga. Those are probably the three major ones that are under a lot of pressure. And at the recent.
Well, it wasn't so recent now, but at the ESPD 55 conference at the UK, for which you were also the official photographer. Thank you for that.
But the representatives from Icer's made, Andrea and Georonimo made an incredible presentation about what do you do when you love the medicines too much? Basically. And the questions that were asked is the phenomenon of bringing people to places like South America and Africa and these places to participate in these ceremonies, because people do. There's a certain yearning, there's a certain longing for these experiences, and yet we have to be mindful of how this impacts these fragile indigenous cultures. And I don't know what the answer to that is, except the part of the answer is to just be aware that there's an issue, try to be responsible about it. And I've often said that perhaps the solution is not to take the medicine, to take the people to the medicine, but bring the medicine to the people.
If we could develop frameworks, regulatory frameworks, where indigenous communities could work with retreat centers and therapy centers in North America and Europe to bring their wisdom north and share their medicines, but without disrupting the cultures, as you well know, because you've been in this for a long time, it's a multifaceted, difficult problem, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. And the most important thing is to preserve what's disappearing so rapidly. You know, the wisdom of these tribes, of these communities lies with the elders generally, and the elders are dying and the elders do not, in general, they don't leave a written legacy, you know, which is not the same as their living legacy anyway. So anything that can bring attention to this issue and these multiple issues is a good thing.
[00:27:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the real issue with setting up these centres to share indigenous wisdom is that it will inevitably fall into the present sociology, economic framework, which causes all kinds of problems and corruption. So for me, I don't feel so positive about introducing psychedelics to mainstream medicine.
For sure they will be huge improvement over current psychiatric interventions.
But the problem with psychedelics is they're not taken regularly enough to really be administered in a way that makes them lucrative, which a lot of pharmaceutical companies are for profit. And I think it needs to work in a completely different kind of capacity. So for me, doing like underground ceremonies or ceremonies with tribes visiting them in their own lands is works for me, but certainly for people that feel like they need the extra security of like a medical doctor, it will take for sure many, many, many more years to get to really establish itself and dovetail with modern medicine.
So let me go back to what you said in the intro, how I opened my mind to the potentials of psychedelics to help treat people with drug and alcohol misuse problems.
So I was working at a drug and alcohol rehab clinic in London for two years, and after about six months, people that got clean went through primary, secondary rehab, and tertiary, which takes a whole year. And I got to look at the figures and the amount of money spent, and it was colossal, but it was also so, yeah, it was a huge amount of money spent to put them through the primary, secondary, and tertiary treatment programs, but that amount was still. They justified it because the amount spent was still less than that particular individual being on the street and being homeless and sex working and shoplifting and stealing cars or committing all sorts of crimes. So it was actually more cost effective to put them through treatment.
But the average client went through the system, I think, two and a half times. That's two and a half years, and somewhere in the region of 70 to 100,000 pounds.
And then after about six months, I saw clients were returning, having been fully clean, leaving the program really beaming, smiling faces. And then within six months, they reached rock bottom. And then after a year or so, I was like, literally everyone that left clean is now returning. So I became somewhat disenchanted with that way of doing things. And there were two clients that came that had successfully cleaned up their act, and one had used Iboga and the other ayahuasca.
And this really got me researching down that avenue, particularly as I grew up, around a lot of friends that were drug users and alcohol abusers from a young age, and also someone very close to me relative who was a veteran. He was in the marines, in the US Navy, and had fought in several wars. And he has, I'm quite severe PTSD, and I actually reached out to Rick Doblin to try and get help for him, and Rick was incredibly helpful.
He responded with, like, extremely long, detailed emails, and he put me in touch with people all over the world.
And we got my uncle help in California with a psychiatrist who. Who gave him ketamine, and he had a really profound experience, and he said he had seen dozens of the top army doctors, the top doctors that the army could provide, and this doctor, in one single meeting, had gone far beyond what any doctor has done for him.
So, thanks, Barrick, and the doctrine question.
So, yeah, this really got me on that path.
And I would say that psychedelics for me have always been something that I treat with extreme respect, especially the plant medicines.
These are really sacred medicines, and for me, they're more like really a break glass scenario.
I wouldn't ever want to get anywhere close to being at a level where I feel like I'm abusing them or using them without the respect and sacredness that they deserve.
But these are incredible medicines and have helped me so many times in the past, overcome certain ailments that doctors couldn't help with.
[00:33:41] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like you covered a few points there. I mean, as these psychedelics emerge into so called mainstream medicine, which they'd never been there before, a lot of the companies that are supporting this research are basically product oriented, profit oriented, and psychedelic therapies don't really fit into that kind of a business model because, as you say, they don't require people to take them for years.
The revenue model is not practical because sometimes one session or a few sessions and it fixes the problem. It helps people actually get better, get healed, which the usual regimen of psychopharmaceuticals. The standard approach in the context of biomedicine is to just keep taking these substances that do not really resolve the problem. Theyre just like band aids. They kind of numb people to their issues, they don't really help people to heal. I think that mainstream medicine would do well to listen to and emulate or at least learn from the indigenous approach because indigenous people have been using these materials for thousands of years and they've learned a few things about how to use them.
The clinically oriented therapists should try to learn from that and reorient their therapies to be in harmony with that.
So I think that's why, I mean, I'm kind of amused now. There are a number of companies now that are trying to develop derivatives, analogs of psychedelics that have the trip engineered out of the molecule so they dont actually have an effect.
Suddenly the whole point of taking a psychedelic is that you could have a profound personal, transformative experience.
And under, in the eyes of some of these people on this research front, its like the trip is viewed as an undesirable side effect, which just baffles me. I do not think that theyre going to be able to come up with any medicine that is a non psychedelic psychedelic, so to speak.
[00:36:32] Speaker A: I couldnt agree more on that point. So a lot of people really want the psychedelic experience. They really want to try it. Theyve seen loads of documentaries, read Michael Polands book how to change your mind, but they're terrified of the possibility of having bad trip.
Now. I feel like without that potential for unfolding, there's no risks, no reward.
I feel like people want the easy way out. They want life to be as easy as possible and expect success. Good health.
But I feel like the psychedelics taken in that way, it's a bit like what Carl Jung said, beware of unearned wisdom.
It's almost like getting a helicopter lift to the top of Everest.
There's other people slog it all the way up. They've really earned it.
So for me there's no, no such thing doubt as a bad trip. I always feel like I've gotten the most.
I've really faced my fears head on, gone into the dungeon and really cleaned out all the skeletons.
Everyone's different. Some people, they prefer the happy modus Santa Daime style or like happy singing along all night long. For me, maybe I'm a bit of a masochist, but I always.
I don't know, I prefer like the darker elements, the more melancholic minor key music. So, like when there's more minor chords in the music and the icarus, it really. It brings me stillness inside.
And then I tend to go deeper.
Experience and the healing.
[00:38:30] Speaker B: Yeah, what you said, I've said exactly the same thing many times is there is no such thing as a bad trick. There's. It depends on what you do with the experience, you know, that's the whole point, is that it pushes you to the edge in a certain way or it takes you out of your normal default mode reference frame, you know, lets you examine your existential situation from a novel perspective and understand how to relate to your trauma, your addiction, your depression, whatever it is that the issues are, you know, by just being able to shift that perspective. And it's not always easily easy, you know, sometimes these experiences are very difficult. That's sort of the point, you know, is like, no pain. Like. Like, I think sometimes people mistake psychedelics for some kind of shortcut to enlightenment, like the helicopter to the top of Everest. Not really. Not if you work with them honestly. It takes discipline, it takes focus, it takes courage to work with these things in a. In a sincere way, you know, in a way that's honestly to oneself, you know, and I think that it's a whole new paradigm, but you cannot separate the experience from the therapeutic effect.
It's baked into it effectively. So I don't think that these. Although despite the millions of dollars that are being put to develop non psychedelic psychedelics, I don't think that they're going to succeed. I mean, they may come up with some interesting molecules, but they will not come up with the therapeutic psychedelics that we already have. Something like psilocybin is just about the most perfect therapeutic, clinically compatible psychedelic that we could have. I mean, Ayahuasca, boga, all of these things as well. But psilocybin is getting a lot of attention because it is so.
It's nontoxic, it's compatible with human metabolism, and the trips are fairly short. I mean, something like hiboga is a rather prolonged experience and thus more of an ordeal, but sometimes that's what's needed. I'm just impressed by what's coming out about Eboga now. Lately. It's apparently kind of a neurological reset for the brain on many levels.
You've had profoundly vulgar experiences, haven't you?
[00:41:37] Speaker A: No, that I've never had a flood dose of eboga. I've had two micro doses. Finally they were at conferences and it was barely noticeable, but it was nice, it was mild. I can still operate the camera, I still did some interviews. It wasn't problematic. But I haven't had the calling for eboga. I think if I really had a struggle in life that went on for several months, then I might had the have calling for it.
[00:42:07] Speaker B: So what of these sacred medicines have been your closest allies, you might say? Is it in Ayahuasca? Is that.
[00:42:17] Speaker A: Yes, I would say ayahuasca. I've done perhaps in the region of 63 ceremonies. Now, there was one point when I was working in a swiss investment bank and I found it quite toxic about eight years ago.
They take very high risks and often, like, when it doesn't work out, it affects the whole. It causes ripples throughout the whole economy.
You could feel like the energy.
For me, it was like you could feel like a toxic energy that kind of just precipitated down and affected everyone. And I was constipated for four years working in that environment. I mean, the people in my team around me were great. I got on with everyone really well, but the people making the big decisions, it's like they really don't give a damn about the things that we're trying to represent here, about nature, preserving, indigenous wisdom, and they really don't.
They're just so focused on profiteering that it really takes a toll.
And I was very sick and burnt out and depressed and constipated for four years. So I really had the calling for ayahuasca quite frequently, and it really helped out on so many different levels and years. It's maybe once a year, once every two years.
I'm in a much better place now, happily married with a child. And things are good.
[00:44:06] Speaker B: Yes.
Nothing like having a young child to focus the mind on a few things. Number one of how lucky you are, you have a wonderful family, a wonderful wife, a baby. Ive met your wife. Shes an amazing person. Havent met your baby yet, but I look forward to that. So we have all this.
Im in a different situation. Im older, my daughters grown up. But, you know, we are all sort of in this sphere. We're very blessed. And I think it makes us more acutely aware of the situation.
We can't endure it, but the situation, but that other people are facing in some of these, I mean, right now, the main what's in everybody's face is Gaza and what those people are going through, what they're confronted with and so on. And, you know, one just feels so much pain. There is so much pain in the world. And here, these medicines potentially could heal a lot of that pain if they could be gotten to people in the right way. I've said often their medicines, not only for the soul of a person, but for the soul of the species. And they work on that level, too, which is why it's important that this indigenous knowledge be preserved and the plants and fungi that are the basis of it.
We are poisoning nature effectively. And what will happen when there is no longer any nature? We cannot survive apart from nature. So all of these things are helpful to sort of bring into focus when you do a marathon like this, when you do something like this to bring attention of the world to these issues. And that's a fantastic thing.
[00:46:28] Speaker A: Now that you touched on the topic of the Israel Palestine conflict, please, I'd like to acknowledge the work of Leo Roseman, who perhaps you know, about the work he was doing. He gave a talk at the World Ayahuasca conference about research. He did. He set up a ceremony with Israelis and Palestinians.
And, I mean, they. When, like, an Israeli hears, like, palest arabic palestinian music, it really makes his blood boil. And vice versa, when the Palestinians hear israeli music, the same. But they were brought together in a ceremony and the medicine really kind of wiped away the conditioned hatred and they really saw where the same, all humans were, all one were the same, and they were hugging each other at the end. And Leo has continued that work and is now setting up a charity. And it's funny, because I went to the World Economic Forum this January, and I got to the house I was staying in, and I was shown to the room and I was sharing a room with Leo. Rosalind.
Yeah. The synchronicities, they continue.
[00:47:42] Speaker B: Yeah. That's amazing.
[00:47:44] Speaker A: And I wish the best of luck to him on that part. It's going to be very challenging.
[00:47:48] Speaker B: And, well, here's the thing. I mean, this is a perfect example of two different groups with all these historical hatreds and repulsions for each other and this medicine.
Get Israelis and Palestinians together in a room with the right mix, MDMA or ayahuasca, whatever it is, and those differences disappear. They dissolve. In a certain sense. They do what psychedelics do, which is one of the things, main things that comes from the psychedelic experience, is recognizing that we're all one. We're not separate. We may not look the same or think the same, but basically we're all people. We're all curious monkeys trying to get along on this planet without destroying it.
At least some of us are trying not to destroy it. So that's the thing.
The psychedelic can be a lens for understanding who we are in relation to nature, but understanding really who our civilization and our species is, too. So they're learning tools, basically. They don't call them plant teachers for nothing.
They teach a lot. And so we're blessed to have access to these things, and I hope more people can as well. And I think what you're doing is bringing a lot of attention to this. I mean, what I just. We're coming up on the top of the hour, but I just wanted to ask you quickly, what have you done? What have you mainly done to prepare for this? There must be an incredible amount of training and focus that's gone into this.
[00:49:52] Speaker A: Sure, I'll answer that question, but I just want to quickly revisit what you were just talking about before because something sprang to mind.
[00:49:59] Speaker B: Please.
[00:50:01] Speaker A: When I consume a psychedelic, especially psilocybin or ayahuasca, kind of catapulted into like a childlike state, and I often get asked to play music in a ceremony. I play several instruments, but I cannot play the simplest chord progression because I'm like a toddler.
And I mean, if you bring, like, for example, an israeli and a palestinian toddler together, they're going to just see another child and play along like it's another child without all the years conditioning. So these medicines, sacred medicines, they really kind of in me, at least they bring me down to the level of a toddler when I'm free of the conditioned mind and the cognitive schema. And then my body goes into like a hyper state of healing.
So this is what I feel they, they help me with on a personal level.
Um, moving on to your next question. So I have a huge rucksack. It weighs about 13 kilos at the moment.
[00:51:10] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:51:12] Speaker A: I need to carry all my gear for the whole week, all the food, lots of dehydrated meals, which taste foul, really terrible. So I'm going to be just eating junk for a week.
[00:51:25] Speaker B: Well, you're not there for gourmet meals, right? You're there for nutrition.
[00:51:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
And I've been training for marathons for almost four years now. And the last several weeks, I've been running 100 kilometer weeks, but I've been slowing down, focusing on endurance rather than speed.
And in the last two weeks, so I've been heat a climbing, doing heat acclimatization.
Apparently it only takes two weeks to acclimatize your body fully to heat. So I've been doing saunas, big cram yoga, and 45 minutes long hot baths.
And I did a bitcram session today, so I'm extremely calm right now, which I really needed because I was quite panicky for a couple of weeks about the event. Um, just all the possibilities of what might go wrong, and it's quite daunting. But now I feel super confident and excited, and I can't wait to represent the people on the hat.
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it, and especially to just be in the desert that. So majestic.
[00:52:48] Speaker B: Have you been to this era before?
[00:52:51] Speaker A: I have in Egypt, yes.
[00:52:53] Speaker B: Okay, so you're not. At least you've seen the environment well. Wow. So you feel like you're about as ready as you can be. And I can tell you how much I admire and respect what you're doing, and I'm a little bit afraid for you, but I think you're up to the task or. Yeah, you were. I guess you won't be able. You won't be posting to Instagram or places like that while you're on that.
[00:53:25] Speaker A: I'd be great. But I'll send out some messages just before and share on Instagram and Facebook. Hopefully I can get a few shots in of the desert before I hand in my big luggage case with all the stuff that I'm not taking.
[00:53:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:53:40] Speaker A: Race itself, including the phone.
And then after I will post now, I'll try to document what I can.
[00:53:48] Speaker B: Where does it start and where does it end? Josh?
[00:53:52] Speaker A: It starts in the southeast of Morocco.
Okay. We cover the tallest dunes in the whole of Sahara, over 100 meters high, some of the dunes that we're going to be traversing.
And there's a special technique with running on soft sand. So 25% of it is going to be soft sand. And apparently, like the moroccan elite runners, they kind of glide over it, whereas everyone else, like me included, we're just going to be looking extremely heavy footed running through it. But there's a way you need to kind of hit it with the full sole and compress it a little bit. Like when you run on snow, you're compressing it, but with sand, it gives way so easily. So you got to, like, kick a little bit to compress it before you land. So there's special techniques. Um, I'm really praying that we don't get a super hot race because some years, it's over 50 degrees every day.
[00:54:49] Speaker B: Right.
[00:54:50] Speaker A: 35 fahrenheit every day, so.
[00:54:54] Speaker B: And very, very cold at night as well. So you. And you, you've got. There's a support teams on the way, so you. There are places to pick up water and places to sleep. If you do that, there are stations, different points along the marathon.
[00:55:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Every ten to 12 km, there's water checkpoints and toilets and. Yeah. What really drew me to this event as well is that people say that you're a different person after the race compared to before. It really changes people in a positive way, and many people say that they meet some of their best friends from their entire life during this event.
[00:55:43] Speaker B: I'm sure that will be true. I'm sure that will be true. Yeah. You can't go through something like this. It's kind of like a prolonged psychedelic experience, you know, so you've got to support each other. But of course, you're strung out in the marathon. It's like. Or are you close to other marathoners during the process, or are you just.
[00:56:09] Speaker A: I I'm going on my own. I don't know anyone that's coming.
[00:56:12] Speaker B: Okay. Is it just. Just you solitarily running, or you're running.
[00:56:18] Speaker A: With, to say, there's no way they could run it without the constant, like, camaraderie and.
[00:56:26] Speaker B: Yeah, so that. That.
[00:56:30] Speaker A: Factor. Yeah, I was very important to finish. Most people say that there's no way they would have finished without it.
[00:56:38] Speaker B: Do you think you'll be able to finish?
[00:56:41] Speaker A: I should. I think it comes down to how hot it's gonna be and how bad the blisters get, because this race is notorious above all other races. Or the blisters that people get.
[00:56:55] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:56:57] Speaker A: Tiny grain of sand gets into your shoe, you know, have, like, a huge blister within an hour or two. So I got to keep on top of that, tape my feet all over, and hope for the best.
[00:57:12] Speaker B: Well, if anybody can do it, Josh, I think you're up to the task. So we wish you all the best for this. We will get this podcast, post it, hopefully before you leave, and we'll look for Facebook posts or whatever along the way. However you're able to keep us appraised, and we'll post those, too on the podcast site. All the links that you sent us and the video, thank you very much. That's all on the podcast site. So any other thought you want to leave us with?
[00:57:49] Speaker A: I just want to thank all the people involved with these two organizations and recyclium, who I met at the World Economic Forum. I'm going to be helping them. They're actually helping to solve the global pollution problem using blockchain and AI and also the crew at Synergetic Press and Institute of Ecotechnics. I met Deborah Nida at your conference, the first ESPD 50, and it was literally, it was like love at first sight. I just, I love what she's doing. I love what those guys are doing. And she actually did a podcast a few months ago with the lady from Extinction Rebellion. And Deborah said, since she was young, I think in her early twenties, she just threw her heart out at what she believed in, which was regenerating the planet and people. She threw her heart out and has been chasing it ever since.
I just find it so deeply inspiring that all the people doing the work behind these organizations are just so incredibly inspiring, as are you and the people that I've met through your conferences.
[00:59:07] Speaker B: Thank you. Deborah is a real changemaker. We just did a podcast with her last week, and thatll post to, and Deborah and I go way back. I have incredible admiration what shes doing and the Institute for Ecotechnics and were all part of the cause, were all part of, I guess, the tribe trying to stave off extinction as much as possible.
You know, I will get these up, and I really appreciate your time.
[00:59:43] Speaker A: Yeah, it'll be really good to have the Heraclitus seaworthy next year.
[00:59:49] Speaker B: Yes, I hope so. I hope so. So, safe journeys in all the men.
[00:59:56] Speaker A: Shouldn't I have a proposition, Dennis?
[00:59:59] Speaker B: What's that?
[01:00:00] Speaker A: What will it take to get you to come to the World Economic Forum next year?
To the World Economic Forum in Davos? Because I went this year and it was the second time, and it really seemed this time round, almost every startup or enterprise I met, they were really focused on sustainability, or sustainability was like a core component of their manifesto. And it was really refreshing. Really nice to see that.
And I think it'd be great to bring you and some of the guys from ESPD 50, the ESPD guys, along to the World Economic Forum.
[01:00:46] Speaker B: That's a conversation we can have. It won't take much to get me there.
I'd like to go. I mean, I'm terrified.
[01:00:55] Speaker A: Maybe we should start a GoFundme now. I can. I work on that side of things.
[01:01:00] Speaker B: Okay, well, let's get this one, and then we'll circle back on it. I'm certainly interested in coming, if that's a possibility, so. Yeah.
[01:01:11] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:01:13] Speaker B: All right.
[01:01:15] Speaker A: Was it Annette that put you up to this podcast?
[01:01:18] Speaker B: I mean, she was behind it. We agreed, but no. When I learned that it was happening, I thought we basically have to feature this because you've been such an ally to the academy, and this is a way of returning the favor a little bit. And also, I believe in the cause. I think we have to draw attention to this, and this marathon is a good way to do it. So keep us posted as you start your journey, and we'll circle back once you get home and get recovered.
[01:01:52] Speaker A: Thank you so much for inviting me.
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