Modern Science & Ancestral Eastern Healing Practices

Speaker 1 00:00:13 Welcome to Brainforest Cafe with Dennis McKenna. Speaker 2 00:00:19 Hello and welcome. My name is Casey McFarland, and you're listening to the Brainforest Cafe with Dennis McKenna. Today we have two very special guests, Shauheen Etminan and Jonathan Lu. Shauheen Etminan is the founder of VCENNA, a CNS drug discovery biotech company focused on poly-pharmacology of natural neuro-pharmaceuticals for mental wellness treatment. Shauheen is an inventor and repeat founder with a portfolio across multi-industries. He holds a Ph.D. in chemical engineering from the University of Calgary. Jonathan Lu is the co-founder of a s drug discovery company, focused on polypharmacology with naturally extracted and purified alkaloid isolates. Jonathan is an expert generalist who is multidisciplinary career, includes roles as a corporate manager, venture investor, and early stage operating executive. He is a graduate from Stanford University's graduate school of Business and received a Bachelor of Science in Chemical Engineering from Cornell University. Welcome everyone. Thank you for being here. Speaker 3 00:01:26 I'm really happy that we were able to, uh, invite you and present this material and, uh, and focused on this really very promising, uh, set of compounds. You know, the, the beta carlenes, as you already know, are structurally very diverse and represented a variety of different pharmacologies far beyond simply oxidase inhibitors, as it turns out. So, so you've, you've pioneered this and you've, uh, built your company around with a focus on these compounds, uh, among other things, I assume, but, but it's good that that's a central focus of what this center is, uh, is all about. So tell me a bit about the company and what led you into this. Speaker 4 00:02:23 Absolutely. Uh, first of all, it was our pleasure and you were our inspiration, uh, mostly when it comes to beta-carboning, just reading your work from back in the day, uh, and then the whole movement around the psychedelic renaissance that's happening in the past, like five years. Um, kind of, it was an intersection. It was a very interesting intersection and specifically, uh, John and i's, uh, Eastern background. And this, this, uh, kind of cavity and gap that we saw that, uh, exists in this space. That was the main inspiration for, uh, for just submitting those proposal. And we were very lucky that they were accepted, and then we were exposed, uh, with, with these knowledge to be, to be shared and distributed. So we, we sent a, started, uh, in 2019 with the focus of, uh, extraction of different alkaloids from plants. Uh, the extraction technology was, was what we started with. Speaker 4 00:03:23 Uh, but when, kind of like 2020, the, uh, psychedelic industry started to heat up, like we kind of moved toward other, other alkaloids and extraction. And then, um, and then from there into basically exploring what was some of these plans that are coming from the east that are less studied in the West and getting into their pharmacology and drug discovery. So that is where, where we started with, uh, from. And, uh, basically last year, that was the time that we, we, we put most of our effort in terms of identifying some of the compounds that they're on the top of them. There were beta carbons that, as you said, uh, their beta carbons are very well known in the context of ayahuasca. Uh, but, uh, and mostly as an ma oi or monoamine oxidase inhibitors, but not further than that. And, uh, with some of the diggings that John and I have done in the, uh, basically the <inaudible> pharmacology of, um, like the, the Iran region and China and those kind of Middle East and West Asia or East Asia, this was, we just like saw these traces of like how these compounds were used by our ancestors and for different purposes, which at the end of the day, it was just, uh, around human transcendence, you know, and kind of like exploring more of the consciousness. Speaker 4 00:04:48 So this was a little bit about how, how we started with, but, uh, Vienna is a drug discovery company. As we said last year, we were trying to mostly push toward, uh, becoming a, uh, kind of like a drug development, um, um, like, uh, pharmaceutical company. But, uh, we are gonna share a little bit more about this story, but like, kind of like half in the way, we decided that, um, you know, it's better to, uh, to see what we can bring into marketing immediately, which debate the carbons, because they're fully on a schedule in the US was on top of, uh, our, our list. So with that, we, uh, launched a line of nootropic supplements called Megi, uh, or Magi ancestral supplements that they are coming from the Eastern plants. Uh, these formulations are inspired by the, the wisdom of the magi, where the stri and priests of ancient Iran, uh, and this was their legacy in use of, uh, psychoactive and hallucinogenic, you know, plans to access an higher state of consciousness and mental wellness, which is very interesting, uh, most in pursuit of the enlightenment and a concept called the Good Mind or vocal, which I can talk more about that. Speaker 3 00:06:08 Okay. Okay. Speaker 5 00:06:09 Yeah. So he, and, uh, for obviously, I think I must interject with the one word that everyone probably knows from that it is the Magi who were the Magi. And since we just celebrated Christmas of these three wise men, maybe we wanna talk a little bit more about, uh, their gift of psychoactive plants of the birth of Jesus, which is what they're mostly known for. Speaker 3 00:06:28 Yes. To hear more about that, of course, everyone knows about the Magi. The whole myth of the Magi, in fact, uh, a few days ago was the, in the Christian calendar, the Feast of the Epiphany, which in many in the Middle East, in Eastern Orthodox, and so on, that is Christmas. And as you know, I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but our audience may not know. But the feast of the epiphany supposedly was when the magi got to Bethlehem and they brought their gifts to the baby Jesus. And that was the actual Christmas. You know, if I'm, I hope I'm not misrepresenting that, uh, uh, and you're saying that the gifts that they brought, I thought it was gold and rubies and that kind of thing. It was psychoactive plant <laugh> medicines. You're telling me Speaker 5 00:07:23 <laugh>? Well, there was gold, but, uh, so 33% was something of monetary value. The other 66% <laugh> is, uh, what we know, frankincense and me Speaker 3 00:07:34 Right, right. Speaker 4 00:07:37 Yeah. Well, the world megi, it's, it's like the Greek referral to this wise man, you know, that are, it's kind of like these were the, the, the, the story doesn't say that, like where the magi came from, you know, to find the nativity of, of the baby Jesus. But so basically they come from, from east that the world magi is actually come, come from a magi, which is the plural form of mags or Mok in Farsi, which is, they basically, these are the Zora priests of ancient Iran. And, um, they had a, like, they were kind of counted as wise men, but by the Greek, they, they were, uh, like known as megi because they had this supernatural, uh, power of, let's say, receiving knowledge from astrology. And, and that was how they basically found the, the negativity. And like, somehow they were also referred to, uh, by Greek as sorcerers. So that's, that's where the world magic come from. So magic is art of magi. Speaker 3 00:08:45 That's what I thought. The, the magic is, comes from the root of magi and magi. The magi were, if the magi were Zoroastrian priests. Right. But they were also, uh, sorcerers, you say, or were, would you, would it be accurate to say that they were kind of shaman? I mean, do they, that that sort of, uh, archetype, they were people knowledgeable about the use of medicines and plants, particularly psychoactive plants, and they were effectively doctors as well as priests? Or is that inaccurate? Speaker 4 00:09:25 Yeah, so basically they, before zoster the pre, uh, Zora religions in Iran, they were dominated by, uh, you know, communities of ecstatic priests and warriors. So that, so basically shamanic practices and accessing to this ecstatic trans state was as a part of, you know, the, the practices that they had. So this is the, what I've read is like just being known as sourcers was the, the refer of, of GRE into the knowledge of the megi, not necessarily that they were, you know, they were kind of like always, uh, trying to stay from sorcery as, or, you know, witchcraft as the, uh, basically the distinction is that like the magi were the righteous people. And that's where, you know, the distinction happens that, that the witchcraft, you know, is separate from the art of, uh, of accessing, you know, this ecstatic, uh, states, Speaker 3 00:10:21 Right? So Speaker 4 00:10:22 This, they perform this, you know, shamanic ecstasies, you know, and other worldly journeys to encounter, you know, uh, duties and to receive reassurance, you know, about the truth of their faith. So that's where, that's where the source of these practices come from. Speaker 3 00:10:39 I see, I see. So on the, on the pharmacology side of this, this picture, as you know, in South America, the beta Carlenes are potentiators of, uh, other plants that contain DMT, which are, which is not orally active in the absence of those beta, of those beta carlenes, of those ahum, is there any similar pharmacology in these, uh, Zoroastrian medicines? Any reason to think that they may have utilized plants containing DMT in combination with these beta carbos? I know this is probably a loaded questions, but I have to ask it <laugh>. Speaker 4 00:11:24 Well, you know, nobody knows what, what was the, the, the real combination, right? But it's just that the only way to understand some of those is, uh, you know, the definition of these, some of these subjective states that they experienced. And, uh, what I can conclude from most of our research is that, uh, is there were not just like a one simple, you know, you know, plant or just like a simple, you know, botanical identity. Most of them there were mixtures and there were mixture for different, you know, rituals. And, um, so there was a big complexity, and they knew exactly like what they were mixing with each other. What was the dose or what kind of, you know, ritual, um, but specifically about Homa, uh, or home in Farsi, you know, like Hong, um, is, is today is referred to a plant called Ephedra in Iran, you know, which Ephedra is widely spread in the floor of like northeast Iran as well as like China and, and those regions. Speaker 4 00:12:29 And that is the plan that the resting ends of today are taking as, as home, you know, which is the, the home or soma or Homa, the word means to press out, basically, they, it, it was an extract. So they were just like using the PEs and mortar to, uh, get these active compounds out of these plants or the plant mixtures. And that was how, how, basically the, the coma. And they were also, they, it was just, they were drinking it, and they were also burning it. So there are, there were two kinds of, like, there, it was also used as an, as an incense. Mm. But back to like, what it was, and, and a comparison with ayahuasca, uh, specifically around beta carlins, I should say, that there has been a, like very long, uh, research about the botanical identity of, of Homa or Soma, which has, you know, like, uh, Gordon Watson, you know, has a book about, about Soma specifically, that she believes that Soma is the Amca Orly garic mushroom. Speaker 3 00:13:34 Right? Right. But you don't buy that. Homa was the real soma, and, and it was, it was more ancient than so than Soma, right? I mean, it came, Speaker 4 00:13:48 So Soma is, is more ancient because, um, basically the text from like Veta are older than the text from other stuff. So they're the text or those, these are basically po poems that they were just like reciting for over a thousand years. And, and actually David Flattery believes that because Avesta or Gotha was transcribed about a thousand years later than Reta. Uh, so this basically the referrals to, to Homa are more accurate because it was transcribed about a thousand years later than what is, what is available in, in, in, in Reiki weather. So based on, um, so I can say, I can tell you that maybe the botanical identity of someone ho Omar could be very different because the floor of India and Iran was different. And, uh, based on that, specifically the work of, uh, Holman Farmer Marine by, by David Flattery, and Martin Schwartz from 1989, uh, is very, is very, um, is, is a, is a paramount work in terms of like, the fact that they separated these two, and they looked into Homa very separately from the context of Sono. Speaker 4 00:15:00 So David Flattery believes that Homa Homa basically ho Omar's main in intoxicants or hallucinogenic intoxicants was Peganone hermila or aan. So that is where most of our research comes from, because AAN is a very rich source of beta carboline, specifically Harmen and Harmine. And if you can compare it with the, with the plant or Banister cisca copy in, in Ayahuasca wine, which is a higher source of harm, and hydro hermine as, as your pioneering work, uh, you know, referred to it back in, back in seventies. Uh, so yeah, that's, that's where, that's where kind of like our business with the study of beta carbons, uh, have become, you know, more and more, uh, deep in this, in this respect. Mm-hmm. Speaker 3 00:15:50 <affirmative>. Okay. So you're building on this traditional knowledge, but you're bringing the latest, most advanced tools of neuropharmacology to this, uh, neuroscience drug discovery, receptor science and all that. I mean, when you claim that Helma was a, is a hallucinogen, you know, the, I mean, the beta carboline are not hallucinogenic in the way that, uh, that say psilocybin or DMT is, they're certainly not classical hallucinogens. Can you make the case that they are hallucinogenic? Or is that even a, that, and even, I mean, hallucinogen itself is a mis no, you know, we don't like to use the word hallucinogen because it's inaccurate. You know, most of the classical, you know, hallucinogens, uh, are, uh, don't cause hallucinations reliably anyway. If that's, if that's the criterion, that's why I think the word psychedelic is coming back into the nomenclature. And psychedelics is a much broader term, but maybe mm-hmm. Speaker 3 00:17:05 <affirmative>, you know, it, it's vaguer, but maybe more accurate, because it means mind manifesting. And the beta carboid certainly could fall into that category. They do manifest a mine like these other things do, but not in the way that, uh, the tryptamines do for, for example. So, uh, can you talk a little bit about the phenomenology, the subjective effects, uh, and the, to the degree that layman can understand it, you know, what's the pharma, what are the subjective effects of these three different, or four different, uh, supplements you've developed, and, and what's the basis of that? What, what's the pharmacology behind that? You know, or of course, you know, we're talking to a, we're not talking to pharmacologists or neuroscientists, we're talking to ordinary people like me, uh, you know, or even perhaps less familiar with pharmacology. But can you explain, uh, a a little bit about what the, uh, pharmacology is behind this beta carboline chemistry? Speaker 4 00:18:17 Absolutely. I, I'll leave that to John, but before, before that, I, I wanna just slide, uh, make a distinction about like how beta carlenes, uh, subjective effects are. And I guess whoever has taken ayahuasca can probably relate to that. So the art, uh, by themselves, uh, counted as Nic or the compounds that they are, uh, kind of inducing a dreamy state or a dream-like state, basically, this is a state that has been referred to in most of the Zora texts, or when the Zora received his revelation, or, you know, like some of the other, uh, member of meja, you know, that they had this like, kind of like several days, you know, uh, of dreaming, you know, that they, they basically had access to the realm of, you know, after death or to the realm of, you know, collective unconscious as Yung, you know, uh, presents this. Speaker 4 00:19:13 And, uh, so this dreamy state, um, or we call it this like mindlessness, you know, that like you are in this numbness, but in this, in this kind of dreamy state, you are exposed to a leap through your consciousness. So you get to receive something, you know, from, you know, the unknown, from the unconscious immediately. And you get to know, to know that, know in, in, in, in, in, basically in, in real time. So this is the effect that is related to the effect of beta carbons. And from my own experience with ayahuasca, I think, um, that's exactly where this, like, the realm of dream may, you know, this high tropic, you know, flush of thoughts that you get under the, the tryptamines. And that's how it, that how, that's how like experiences, like ayahuasca experience is, is bringing, you know, epiphanies or breakthroughs, you know, for people who are drinking these, uh, in a, in a, in a right setting. But with, I'll leave that, you know, into, to John to talk more about, like some of our inspirations, you know, for bringing those effects into, into magi. Speaker 3 00:20:26 Okay. So in some sense, you could talk, you could characterize these, these, uh, beta carboline formulations as rogens, you're familiar with that word, right? Something that rings on dreams or, or stimulates dreams. Maybe that's a more accurate term to apply to these kinds of, uh, medicines. But, but John, let, let me hear from you. You're the pharmacologist of the team. What can you tell us? Speaker 5 00:20:58 The, yeah. Interesting thing Bo uh, behind this here is not just what did the actual dreamlike, uh, experience provide for you, but particularly if you look back to so much of Eastern medicine, and particularly traditional Chinese medicine, it was never one compound. This is why something like ayahuasca is always near and dear to my heart. It's just a mixture of these plants, oftentimes plants from very disparate regions that, um, the, through a long series of experimentation, you know, humans discovered that they are very active together. Um, and, and certainly Chinese medicine is very much this way here, where very rarely would you find just a single plan or a single compound. Um, this whole, you know, one target, one receptor, uh, you know, one drug, uh, approach certainly never existed back then. There's was always going to be a mixture of different compounds. And, um, in some ways, I'm a little disappointed actually, to discover that there was not a history of betacarotene or espan use in traditional China. Speaker 5 00:21:48 Um, in, in the Xinjiang and, and Siberian provinces to the west, uh, the plants does grow. And, and only in the last couple hundred years was there additional uses, um, that go as far as things like, um, uh, as, uh, as, as pesticides, as well as, uh, a variety of, you know, kind of like a, a panacea of different, uh, health remedies that it was used for. Um, but when I look back at some of the oldest Daoist texts, what they were seeking was exactly the same as what the magi were, which was this pursuit of transcendence and this pursuit of, of inner spirituality, what they would call something more of like inner alchemy. And they used a lot of different, you know, here, here's where it's interesting, where words matter what we would not call hallucinogens or psychedelics in, in China, but the, the specific word that we would use is, is translated to mind altering, which I think is very appropriate and given the, the effects here, this deep hope that I would find, uh, the use in some of these old texts of, uh, of s band or pagan parmal. But unfortunately, uh, there's many other plants and some that we've experimented with and done some accommodations with. Um, but the, the objective was always to reach this transcendence, which, um, which the, the state of dreaming while you're awake, which often, uh, you can even look at as attainable through meditation, uh, is exactly that. Speaker 3 00:23:01 Uh, this was a goal of, uh, Taoist alchemy as well. Right. Speaker 5 00:23:06 Absolutely. <laugh>. Speaker 3 00:23:07 Yeah. So, well, that's very interesting. Uh, so you think that the Taoists were onto some, some of these formulations which may have included beta carlins, but the plants are not known. Is that, is that basically what you can say, or have you, I guess more specifically, have you stumbled on any plants in the Chinese pharmacopia that might point to this and that, and that we know from modern day studies might have had the, uh, the right alkaloids or the right constituents? Speaker 5 00:23:44 Yeah, only from the really recent and, and recent of course, in, uh, the span of Chinese history would be, um, older than the United States, uh, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> past 300 years or so. But, uh, given a, a, a five to 6,000 year history of, uh, Chinese medicine, there was not a, a longer use going back towards the, the time that Chinese medicine really started to take off, which was around, you know, 200 bc Speaker 3 00:24:06 Right, right, right. Speaker 5 00:24:08 Yeah. Most of their compounds were much more, uh, focused upon more the troopin classes, what we would call something like a delirium, um, which certainly are psychedelic. Speaker 3 00:24:18 Right. And there are certainly, uh, uh, elements of Chinese medicine that point toward mushrooms. Mushrooms apparently were held in the high esteem, you know, like the ling Chi, I think they ling z the Speaker 5 00:24:33 Yeah, Ling Z Speaker 3 00:24:34 Derma, uh, but not psychoactive mushrooms. But they may have been, you know, they may have also, in fact, they must have known about psychoactive mushrooms. But, uh, I guess it's not in the pharmacopia, which is kind of interesting, kind of puzzling actually. Speaker 5 00:24:54 Well, there are psychedelic mushrooms that are in the pharmacopia. Um, specifically the philosophy, the Arin strains, uh, the sen strains were, were both, those grow very, very rapidly across, uh, across eastern China. Um, and those were, were known to be used. Um, uh, the given, given how some of the mushrooms, like the Linzi or which, which is like a reishi mushroom, gets a lot of press. Um, we know that that's one that was used very, uh, very rapidly. Um, whereas something like the loc containing strains, they were used, but they weren't, uh, with the, the nearly as prolific as, um, as some of these non psychodelic mushrooms. You know, naturally, it also becomes difficult to really translate when you look at just how illustrative some of the descriptions of the, their trip reports are. Right. Um, you know, you're going to sea spirits flying above the clouds riding on top of dragons, and that's describing nothing except for just like a Turkey tail mushroom Speaker 3 00:25:48 <laugh>. Right. So, so, uh, so this use of the sloes in China, this is documented, this is, this is, this is known, Speaker 5 00:26:01 Yeah. Yeah. There's a, in, in a couple of the different material. Medica is, um, um, no, this is known going back to about, uh, I think seven or 800 years. Speaker 3 00:26:12 Okay. Well, that's very, that's very interesting. I mean, that, that also ties into this, uh, you know, this, this puzzling contemporary phenomenon, which the, uh, other gentleman, uh, Paul and Damour and, and, uh, Brian, uh, Bettinger Rin. Speaker 5 00:26:34 Yeah. Rin Rin, yeah. Speaker 3 00:26:35 They talked about the, you know, the, the psychoactive, uh, s or the putatively psychoactive s but it seems it doesn't, from the description sound like psilocybin, and apparently the chemistry is very elusive. You know, they're, they're not reliably psychoactive, but you have these interesting trip reports, uh, uh, you know, about seeing the little people and Yeah. Thing, which is very interesting when you think about it, because the Yami Indians and other, uh, groups that use the, the hallucinogenic, DMT based snuffs in South America also have a whole mythology about how when you take the, uh, when you take the stuff you see the little people and, uh, you know, there's a great deal of parallels to, uh, uh, you know, to, to their reports from China. Anyway, I don't worry off on a tangent here. We're not supposed to talk about Chinese medicine, but, uh, <laugh>, so tell us Yeah, what you'd like to about the, uh, about the pharmacology chemistry of, of your formulations or of these, these beta carbine. Speaker 5 00:27:52 Yeah, so back to the beta carbine themselves, I mean, as these long discussed, they've, why we been known, uh, for their M A O I properties and believe that was the only effect that they had. Um, but when you do take them by themselves, you know, just having an m a o i property would not result in having this, this, you know, ona onic dreamlike, uh, state where you can have a, a level of dream access while you're awake, which is certainly beneficial because the, the biggest challenge of dreams is you often just don't remember them. Speaker 3 00:28:17 Yeah. Speaker 5 00:28:17 If you can experience them while you're awake, you can start to capture a deeper level of some of the emotional insights that, uh, you know, your, your psychology is trying to unravel while you're in this dreamlike state. Um, and as we went through the, the deeper psychological, or, or sorry, the psychological, the deeper, uh, receptor profile for what exactly do these compounds do? The one that really stood up to us, which is our theory for where most of the impact comes from, is the receptionist known as the iline receptor Speaker 3 00:28:42 Ima Iline receptor. Okay. Tell us about that. Speaker 5 00:28:48 It's a highly understudied receptor <laugh>, Speaker 3 00:28:50 But tell me, okay. Why is that important? Speaker 5 00:28:54 Yeah, it's a highly understudied receptor that deserves a much more credit, and for a long time was thought to be just another type of, one of the, uh, the adrenergic receptors. Um, a structure is, is very, uh, uh, interesting and, and particularly the, the, uh, adaline two receptors, one that has been implicated in pain perception. So it has been studied for its analgesic properties. Um, but pain, of course, then is, uh, has its oid that is related to the overall perception of consciousness, um, and, and, and feeling. Um, and, uh, the, the thing that's most unique about the beta carbine is they are the strongest known agonist to the I midaz receptor. Um, nothing synthetic that's been created has been able to, uh, the approach, the level of selectivity nor the high level of binding, particularly to the I two R receptor. Um, so it's our, our belief here, based upon some of the, the different studies with, uh, with blocker, is that this is the one that's particularly implicated in the dreamlike state. Speaker 3 00:29:47 That's very interesting. That's very interesting. So iline is a neurotransmitter, or, Speaker 5 00:29:57 Yeah. Yeah. It is, uh, uh, primarily found actually in the, in intestinal system since, you know, we think with much more than our brains. Um, but that's the, the, the greatest prevalence, I think is, is in the small intestine. Speaker 3 00:30:10 Okay. And, and it's involved with analgesia and pain perception as well as possibly dream processing and, and that sort of thing. How come this thing has not received more attention? It sounds like a fascinating novel target. Target for, for beta carbos and possibly other compounds that might be developed from beta carbos. I mean, this is huge. How come? Nobody's paying attention to it other than ceta, of course, but Speaker 5 00:30:41 Yeah. Yeah. There have been a few groups behind this, and here's where I'll, I'll have put on perhaps my, my cynical hat for my, my, uh, also theory behind why I believe that is, is, uh, for a lot of the good research that has come out as, uh, a number of academic institutions behind this, um, for, for, I wanna say a period of about 10 or 20 years, there was a, a fairly in intense level of study to try and create a synthetic compound that would be, uh, an an agonist of the m moid receptors. And I think the key reason behind it is because so much of modern pharmaceuticals is based upon developing not necessarily the best drug for treating the human body or brain, but the best drug for intellectual property. Speaker 3 00:31:19 Yes, exactly. You've got to be able to patent. But these beta carboline, so do, uh, apparently they are good agonist for the iline receptor. Speaker 5 00:31:33 Now, these two strongest, Speaker 3 00:31:36 And what, what are the beta carboline that are best at this? The, the classical ones? Arming harmine or more obscure structurally, uh, different ones. Speaker 5 00:31:49 Yeah. Harmine specifically is still the strongest one. So out of all the synthetics that are out there. So I think like Reserpine does have some level of affinity for it. Uh, a couple of the other, um, uh, ones, uh, that have, uh, that are still under some actually even clinical study have, uh, affinity, but nothing is actually proven to be stronger than just harming itself. I think Speaker 4 00:32:07 Parline is, has a stronger affinity Tomlin, uh, receptor to John? No. Speaker 5 00:32:14 Uh, yeah, it's, I can't remember. I thought it was Harmine was the strongest arm lead was even west. So arm Speaker 4 00:32:20 Very strong. And there are some work, um, that is that, um, from some, from some researchers who have been working on ezine, that they injected adaline for acetic acid, you know, to rodents. And the result was this hypnotic, uh, you know, basically effect, um, that is like exactly like a resembling stenotic state resembling sleep that was followed by some type of seizure type activity in rodents. So this is also something that again, kind of is, is in con congruence with, you know, with the effect that we, we think, you know, M two receptors has, but the most interesting work actually comes from the work of Claudia NoHo back in 19, uh, 64. He has, uh, this book called The Healing Journey. Yes. And those who don't know Claudia NoHo, he was a psychotherapist, uh, his and psychiatrist, a Chian psychiatrist who, uh, was running this clinical trial that, you know, basically he wa he was receiving referrals from the, uh, patients with major dis depressive disorders that there were no, no other intervention had worked on those. Speaker 4 00:33:29 So they, what he did was that he injected a intravenous, um, dose of 10 methoxy harmine into these, uh, uh, you know, these patients. And it was, I guess only some of them. There were twice, but most of them, there was only one experience. And, and this chapter of this book is called the, uh, the Harmine and, uh, collective unconscious. It's a very interesting chapter. It's a trip reports of three of these, uh, uh, patients. And, and then, and the conclusion is very interesting. Most of the, the, the subjective effect is around a physical, you know, relaxation, a tendency to withdraw from the environment, you know, a feeling of a certain numbness that opens you to extremities, and a very visual, actually image, you know, it's exactly like hallucination, hallucination and imagery hallucination that they got under this dreamy state. So this is kind of like the most relevant work about the injection of a al compound into, uh, you know, basically intravenously, which is, which would acts very quickly. Speaker 4 00:34:42 And, um, and then relation of that into, you know, basically something which is more like an interpersonal experience, which is more like a union archetypes, because most of these, exactly like ayahuasca, you know, like most of, uh, these patients saw, uh, images of, let's say, um, people that they had never met before, like Indians or like birds or like, let's say dark skin, men death, you know, or circular, um, uh, you know, kind of, uh, around the unit unity or oneness. And this was kind of a common in, in the experience of most of his, his patients. So that is how, and Novo actually relates this experience or this dream life state that you kind of consciously meet the age of unconscious. And this is not the personal unconscious, this is the collective unconscious that you have been inherited, not necessarily acquired, or it's not part of your conscious that's been repressed. And, um, and I, I kind of like that that kind of aligns very well with the, uh, Jungian theory of different archetypes that he, he presents that way. Speaker 3 00:35:55 You know, I, uh, of course I was aware of a bit of neuron hall's work because he actually, interestingly enough in this connection, he was one of the presenters at E S P D, the original e s read 1967, you know, he had a chapter on exactly this topic. And, you know, I have to re-look at, I may have to eat some crow here because I had kind of dismissed it, you know, this, this report, because it was a report of the patient's reaction and my respond, my sort of original take was, uh, this is not a controlled experiment. You know, you're gonna give people compounds that, that, and tell 'em that it comes from this jungle vine. And, you know, the whole context of, of that. And of course, they're gonna see jaguars and snakes and that sort of thing, even though they're urban, you know, residents of Santiago, Chile, and probably never got near the jungle. Speaker 3 00:36:59 But maybe I was, uh, not too fair with him. I mean, he certainly was a pioneer. That's really very interesting. Uh, uh, so do you think that, you know, right now the whole, uh, psychotherapeutic community is excited about psychedelics, you know, and, and talking about the new therapeutic paradigms for depression and P T S D and, uh, all of these things, you know, uh, addictions and so on. The big problem that a lot of these companies are facing is they'd love to be able to use psilocybin, but they can't. It's still illegal. I mean, you could only use it in clinical trials eventually it may be legalized for, for clinical use. So a lot of these, uh, therapists, for lack of a better medicine, have turned to ketamine, but maybe under their right circumstances, these beta caral disease, Imma, ima Iline agonists, uh, I mean, could they potentially be used psycho therapeutically? And have you done any trials in that respect? And, uh, or do you plan to, what, what's the status of that? It seems like if you could bring a medicine, you know, forward, it's, it's not prohibited, it's not scheduled, you know, know, so you're not crossing any legal barriers, uh, and potentially if it has a therapeutic effect, you've got, I mean, then you have, uh, a tremendous, uh, you know, patient base that, uh, that would be interested in this. What, what's, uh, what, what are you, what are you doing? Are you pursuing this? Speaker 4 00:38:57 Yeah, the, the, the, the, the, maybe the funny part about like some of these, um, you know, pharmachronological intervention that exists in nature, is that like they don't receive that much, you know, interest from, you know, from the medical, uh, community because as, as we said, like, because they can't be, these are natural compounds, they can't be patented. And, um, specifically like investors, they wanna protect their, you know, capital, you know, and that's where maybe, you know, something like this that could have a high potential, specifically with the work of NoHo, you know, let's say, I'm sure like there might be no other researchers that are still, they're currently working on these that are not even published. But, um, but yeah, you know, this could be something that, um, specifically knowing the process and the mechanism of action and how in, in what subjective state of mind, let's say this psychotherapy could be present to help these, uh, these patients that could be, uh, you know, a very plausible, uh, you know, therapeutic solution. Speaker 4 00:40:03 Um, yeah, I, I guess for, for the listeners of this, this, this podcast, I refer them to read the, the chapter of Harmine and, uh, collective unconscious from the Healing Journey by Claudia NoHo, which, uh, she actually has, you know, elaborated this three of the, the experience of three of these, these patients. But back to what you said, um, about, you know, let's say comparison of psilocybin specifically, now that it has received a lot of attention in laws versus beta carlins. Um, I think the, the subjective effect of psilocybin is definitely more interesting, you know, in terms of, uh, you know, let's say the, uh, the psychedelic effect, you know, like around the, the flush of, you know, just high tropic thoughts, you know, that, that allows you to look into things, you know, from, uh, different aspects, let's say when you have this, uh, interconnectedness of, let's say different part of your, your, your, your memory. Speaker 4 00:41:07 Um, so those are very new experiences versus, uh, the Beta Carlin experience is more like, you know, any type of lucid dreaming that you may, you may have at one night. You know, it's just like, you are not consciously going toward that. But let's say if you have a pharmacological, uh, solution for data that, that you invoke this, or you, you inspire this data, let's say you are consciously present at the age of, you know, just connecting to the unknown, to the unconscious, and, and then you have to, at the same time, you have to psychologically be, be in a position that you can't, you know, process that not, not go crazy, but by just, you know, being exposed to, to, to more unknown in your life. Uh, I guess that's where, you know, mostly the, the work of psychotherapy comes and maybe the screening for psychotherapy comes, but definitely, uh, we believe that beta carlins are overlooked and they have a very high potential. Speaker 4 00:42:02 And that's why we started to bring into market this supplements of, uh, basically just with the main, uh, compounds of beta carbo lengths around this again, um, uh, this kind of, um, you know, practice of mindfulness where you consciously want to again, like learn and receive from the beyond normal body yourself. You know, it's just kind of like bringing as, as, uh, as Yung actually puts the individuation, you know, concept around like how you move from your ego toward yourself. Like, these are some practices that you can just define yourself in the, in the, in the bigger context of the universe. Uh, so these compounds under megi are, are formulated to help with that. Um, uh, John, do you wanna maybe add to this a little bit about like what they do and Speaker 5 00:42:56 Yeah. A little bit of what they do, and I think, uh, one portion that we also wanna talk a little bit about is how do we come up with exactly with our formulations? And this comes to our heritage of beginning in the drug development field, which, um, originally working with some controlled substances. Now, of course, everything that's launched or magi is, uh, is uncontrolled, and, um, has the approval to be sold, uh, across the fair, rigorous, uh, safety profile that we have done our, our ourselves. Um, but the, the approach for how we come up with our dosages is very similar and, and inspired really by, you know, by Shogun, by, uh, some of the, the early magi and many of the oldest practitioners, which is really just self, uh, self, uh, experimentation mm-hmm. <affirmative> naturally, uh, rather than, um, uh, than synthesizing something novel, then taking it to try and see what it does to, to ourselves, which is Shoguns approach here, you know, our approach has been more out of our lab using this extraction technology. Speaker 5 00:43:47 What are some of these novel plants, or sometimes even non-no plants that have been known for a long time, but when you start mixing, uh, their different alkaloids together, um, this receptor map, when you combine, you know, for example, beta carboline with another well known and just, you know, off the shelf, uh, uh, um, uh, compound may give a very different subjective experience. And, you know, through our own approach of trying to map that subjective experience back to the receptors, back to the actual neurobiology, is how we've come up with a very specific dosing, um, for our four different products. Speaker 3 00:44:15 Right. Right. So this is how, I mean, so this also is the, is another possible, uh, pathway to intellectual property. And patentability, you've, you've focused on polypharmacology, you're focused on proprietary formulations, combinations of these natural compounds, beta Carlenes and others. So, so, you know, I mean, as a company, of course, you have to be concerned about, uh, uh, you know, patentability and, uh, and, uh, intellectual property. I mean, you have, have to produce value for your investors, but just in terms of the uses of these things, what I am hearing here as you talk about the effects and the way they potentially might be used, you know, it was either Freud or young, I think it was Freud, he said a lot of dumb things, but one thing he said was dreams or the royal road to the unconscious, and, uh, Dre and pointing to a therapeutic role for dreams, you know, to, and in many cultures, of course, put Dr. Speaker 3 00:45:32 Dreams at the top, you know, I mean, uh, what the shaman dreams, what the, what the patient may dream if they're being treated by a shaman. Uh, so, so it seems like just these, these formulations may work in the context of therapy, you know, not necessarily like psilocybin, like a psychedelic where you take, you take it once or twice and all of a sudden, you know, you don't smoke anymore. Or if something like that, a dramatic effect. But if people are, have situations where it needs more extensive psychotherapy to work out, deep trauma around, you know, whatever. I mean, the, the, these kinds of, uh, mental, I wouldn't call them disorders, but mental dysfunctions in some ways, more call for extended psychotherapy. It's not something that's gonna happen in one or two sessions. It takes time, but it seems very likely that these compounds could really facilitate that. And I think that would be, that would be very interesting. And, uh, I think that, my guess is there are a number of therapists that would like to, uh, work with you on this to see if these therapies could be worked out and for all. I know you already are working with some, but, but that would be a, uh, that would be a viable direction forward, I think. Speaker 5 00:47:12 Yeah, you're absolutely right, Dennis. I would sub not just at, at Dreams, but the, the other key portion or the other key practice, which is, uh, is, is beneficial not just for a therapeutic standpoint, but also for just the maintenance of a healthy psychological and mental state, of course, is also just meditation, Speaker 3 00:47:27 Right, right. For meditation. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so the, the compounds are the, the formulations and the compounds are, uh, very promising. Speaker 5 00:47:39 Yeah. Uh, something else I was just thinking about was, we, you were speaking there is, you know, back to early Tong Dynasty, there was a period in, in Chinese medicine where doctors, they were compensated as doctors in the, in healthcare rather than in sickness care of what we're accustomed to, meaning that they were compensated when you were healthy and you stopped paying them, and you were sick Speaker 3 00:47:57 <laugh>. Right? That's how it should be. <laugh>. That's, that's not a revenue bottle that's gonna work at Mod. No, Speaker 5 00:48:05 Unfortunately not. But, uh, was, I was thinking about that as you were speaking because it's, uh, it, it's, while there's certainly this beneficial, uh, element of helping the AE have a, a deeper level of vivid or lucid dreams to experience some of the, the, uh, emotional challenges in a safe space, uh, or, or an addition to some of the insights that you can garner from meditation as a part of a therapeutic process, even as a, as a proactive health process. That's really how we have originally, um, started. Our, uh, our formulations here is for the conscious and the mindful community that are trying to better understand themselves and reach their own level of deeper insight about themselves, whether it's through meditation or the, the, the night version of meditation, which is dreaming. Speaker 3 00:48:45 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I can imagine that, uh, these, uh, these, these formulations could work well as an adjunct to, uh, uh, the kind of work that Alexandre does, for example, with the sound diversion therapy and that sort of thing. I would think that they would fit together very compatibly with that. And, uh, if you come to New York as you're going to, you could talk to him, you know, he, he'd be willing to, he, uh, would be, I'm sure, willing to give it a try with some of the groups that he works with. So that's something to keep in mind, you know, we can, we can discuss it with him. Have you sent him any of these? Speaker 5 00:49:30 No, absolutely. Yeah. This is a good reminder to bing him to get some feedback from him. Speaker 3 00:49:34 Yeah, you did send it some, Speaker 5 00:49:37 Yes. Speaker 3 00:49:38 Yeah, he good. Good, good. Well, I, now that I have a better picture of what, uh, what to expect, I'll, uh, I promise I'll do my homework, and, uh, by the time I see you in New York, I'll have, uh, I'll have some subjective impressions to share with you, so looking forward to that. Speaker 5 00:50:00 Yeah. For, uh, for the listeners here, I think the thing we haven't talked about here is actually what are our products and what are our current four products and what else that we're working on. So maybe you should spend a little of time going to some of that. Speaker 3 00:50:10 Sure. Let's talk about that. Speaker 5 00:50:13 Yeah. The, the two most unique products that we have, the first one, which is actually, uh, um, Shaheen, you, uh, think it would be helpful for you also to provide some of the actual cultural context behind their names, but is known as Stard, uh, which is our meditation aid. Um, this is one that is more of a mini dose than a micro dose, and has been formulated with a very select group of beta carb wound here in a part in a particular dosage and a ratio here. So that, uh, rather than the traditional approach to microdosing or mini dosing of helping with your productivity, I would say it actually does the opposite. It helps with your non productivity <laugh>. Uh, and and why would that be useful? Well, that is particularly useful when you're trying to meditate and your own monkey brain is cycling through all these thoughts and anxieties, and Yeah. And this is exactly back to the original use of, uh, of Homa by the Magi here in, um, using this in meditation before and open fire in order to maintain this open level of a mind. Speaker 3 00:51:06 Absolutely. And well, there's a lot to be said for non productivity, for, for disengaging, but disengaging in a very deliberate and conscious way, in a certain way, because we are dis distracted, I think in our culture, more than ever, we're distracted by all the stimuli that come to us, you know, particularly through the internet since I mean it, you know, it, it's great to shut off all the screens and look at the inner screen for a while and see what's going on there. So, okay, this sounds good. What about the next one? Speaker 5 00:51:40 Yeah. Uh, is the last thing I wanna say about that I, I love exactly. You said there, I just finished reading Oliver Burman's last, uh, book, 4,000 Weeks, where he talks a little bit about how in Aristotle, on the Greeks, they actually saw leisure as the most divine pursuit of men. Um, and it's because leisure is very different from how we define it today. It wasn't us sitting playing video games. It's actually really the pursuit of just nothingness for itself, of just discovering yourself and you saw is truly valid as opposed to activities such as work. What you're doing is goal-directed, like leisure is there for the purpose of itself, it's autotelic and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that is exactly the, the most rewarding part of why we actually undergo meditation. Speaker 3 00:52:17 Yes. It's, it's ironic, isn't it? I mean, we work so hard in order to have more leisure time, you know, and, and like, we feel like we, we, you know, we have this very peculiar relationship to work, you know, and it's like, you know, you know, if you just devote time to meditation or self-development or reflection, I mean, our culture's changing in a lot of ways. These things used to be devalued, you know, and not valued, you know? Uh, but now I think with the emergence of psychedelics, so, you know, slowly our culture is beginning to recognize the value of inner states, basically reflection, meditation, self-knowledge, self-development. So this is all a healthy thing, you know, but it takes time to get accepted into a culture, especially one like ours, you know, where the main drug is coffee, you know, we're the coffee achievers. We like stimulants, you know, and that's the, and that's a reflection of the way that we relate to, uh, you know, our work and everything else. It's like, if you're not focused, stimulated, you're not doing your job, you know, <laugh>. Yeah. But we're, we need to evolve away from that. Speaker 3 00:53:41 Yeah. Well, um, um, Speaker 5 00:53:45 John, Speaker 5 00:53:45 Do you wanna go through Mang as well? And maybe I can, yeah, maybe just a quick intro, and then I want you, Shane, uh, maybe it'd be helpful to talk a little about some of the cultural context, but the, the second most unique product that we have is Mang, which is also a, uh, a mini dose more than a microdose. And this one, I'd say with a similar intention of a stard also meant for the on productivity, but meant for the on productivity for you to take before you go to sleep at night. Um, and through some of our own studies of measuring brainwaves in the state of, uh, of, of, uh, what we would expect to, uh, occur during r e m sleep, which is characterized by higher level of high frequency gamma ba uh, wavelengths, uh, this is actually, uh, facilitated and improved, um, through supplementation, uh, with, uh, the main formulation, um, when you take it before you sleep at night. And the exact, uh, uh, purpose of that is to help you have more vivid and especially lucid dreams when you're in your RM phase. Speaker 3 00:54:37 Okay. So these mini doses formulated for mini doses. So these are doses that if I take it once, I'm gonna notice something, something will happen that's noticeable, right. As opposed to the micro dose, where is it happening? Isn't it happening? You can't really tell, you just sort of have faith that it's doing something. So would you wouldn't recommend, or would you recommend combining these things? Is that a good idea or use them separately in series? Or, uh, how would you recommend, uh, the people use these? Speaker 5 00:55:19 Yeah, certainly separately, um, um, in series is, is okay as well. But if the, if your objective is to actually feel something more than mini one, rather than combining a many of us, a micro, the simplest way is just take more than mini Speaker 3 00:55:31 Right. Take more of the mini. Okay. Okay. So tell me about the, uh, the, uh, microbe products. Speaker 5 00:55:40 Yeah, the two microdose formulations we have, one of them is actually named Homo, and it's a named homo, specifically in reference to the actual use of, uh, of reaching a deeper level of sleep. Um, so that one is a, is a deep sleep aid where we have formulated that with its, uh, its level of alkaloids there that rather than trying to increase a level of high frequency gamma wavelengths during sleep, it's actually trying to in, uh, increase your lowest frequency, which is your delta, uh, uh, wavelength when you're in a deep sleep stage. And that's meant, uh, more for the reparative nature of, of what's happening with your brain's glymphatic system to help clean out all the junk that's been accumulating during the day, and to help, you know, your organs to recover, um, rather than necessarily something that's more for, for psychological insight. It's really meant much more for physiological recovery. Speaker 3 00:56:27 Okay. And what about the other mini product? Speaker 5 00:56:32 Uh, and the last mini product is called, uh, a Ameritas. Uh, and that is, uh, is probably the most classic of, uh, of a kind of, uh, of a daily nutritional supplement. Uh, but rather than nutritional supplement for your, your body's health, it's much more for your brain's health. Uh, and this is really for getting a, a specific, uh, quantity of beta carboline, um, uh, into your, uh, own neurochemistry, given all of their, you know, well-researched and extensive, uh, uh, length of neuroprotective neurogenesis properties from, you know, regulation of regulatory enzymes, inhibition of some, um, of proteins that have been implicated into neurodegenerative disorders. Speaker 3 00:57:08 So this is your, you know, for cognition, cogniti cognitive development, or com prevention of cognitive deficits. This is your anti dementia, uh, formulation a certain way. Yeah. I better get started on that one right away. Uh, <laugh>, I, I can feel it coming on. So <laugh>, it's never too late. Speaker 4 00:57:32 We thought that too. Opinion? Speaker 3 00:57:34 Well, it was the mini products, uh, the, the, or rather the micro products, uh, you have to take them for a while before you perceive a response, right? Yeah. Whereas the mini products are pretty much that's like in low Yeah. Perceptible, but the micro products, I'd have to take it for a couple weeks before I'd really notice much effect. Is that, is that pretty much how it would work? Speaker 5 00:58:01 Yeah, that's exactly right. Speaker 3 00:58:03 Yeah. Okay. Speaker 5 00:58:05 Yeah, the mini products you'll, uh, sorry, you mean the, the, the mini products, you'll, you'll, most people will feel in about 10 to 15 minutes, and then the duration of it will be, you know, 40, 40 to 50 minutes. Speaker 3 00:58:16 Okay. Okay. Speaker 4 00:58:18 Yeah, yeah, Speaker 3 00:58:19 That's fine. Time with the sleep products. Hopefully you're asleep by then, so, yeah. Well, this is, this is fantastic. This is, these are very interesting for all sorts of reasons. Speaker 4 00:58:31 You're, yeah. Maybe I can quickly, uh, refer to what, what, what their name means, and some of them are very interesting. So start actually, uh, I saw with Mang, so Mang was a very strong psychoactive potion that, uh, basically was given by Zora to the king of his tongue, guita, which is, they're saying that it was a combination of homo, which, um, it could be whatever the botanical IV homo was plus man, which before 12th century man in Iran was, you know, uh, black heba. Basically it's, if we assume that, uh, you know, homo was beta, so basically is a combination of beta carbs, which were on the frontage plus, you know, some dissociated, you know, like, uh, a atropine, you know, or Escap products. So that was, that's how it was. Just like they put, were putting no, the, uh, domino into like a long sleep. Speaker 4 00:59:27 So, but the mind that we have is nothing to do with that strong potion, but that's where the inspiration of the name comes from. And, and this start is actually the definition in Palla language of a state of mind, which this is a, like kind of this, it, it means that like to spread out to, to something larger, to spread out, not to a broader consciousness. And that's why we, uh, we kind of like name our meditation supple and start, which, you know, this kind of like, uh, inspire, you know, invokes this, this, this estate. And, uh, the OT in, uh, again, in Avistan language means immortality, which is our microdose for, uh, neurogenesis and, and neuroprotection and homo, as John explained, is more like a unique product, know that is around, you know, the quality of sleep, sleep, you know? And the way that we developed that, it was just like mostly doing a lot of work around sleep tracking, you know, and brainwave, uh, you know, tracking and then, uh, kind of like, uh, more of, you know, uh, more on data, you know, to get into, uh, formulate these. Speaker 4 01:00:36 But something that is very interesting around me, I know, which we like to also, uh, just put out with these, uh, supplement is that is not, we, we don't want them to be only a supplement, but like a supplement and practice. So we wanna, uh, say develop this practice of meditation for our consumer, or develop the practice of, you know, like going after, you know, finding their own, uh, blind spots, you know, or, uh, anything that they, they want know their life to strive on through the medi, like meditation or let's say, uh, a lucid dreaming. And, uh, with that at, for example, the, the true psychedelic actually conference that are coming, one is the map science conference that you're gonna be hopefully there as well, you know, in, in Denver in, in June, as well as another conference by psychedelics today at the end of March that we, we host this group meditation that are supplemented by our start, and we are hopeful to just kind of like, use that as a tool to, uh, to uh, kind of like build community around these mindfulness practices. Speaker 3 01:01:42 Right? Right. And that does seem like a great application. That's really, I think, what I had in mind when I referred to the way they might fit into therapy. I mean, it's not that they would necessarily fit into therapeutic regimens like we think of that, but, but into meditation practices. So meditation is, uh, something that has to really be lear learned in order to integrate it into your life. And it seems like these, uh, these products might be very appealing to people that, uh, that teach mindfulness meditation and that sort of thing. I have just the person who would be happy to help you with this, but we'll leave that offline and I'll get back to you. But, uh, there's a gentleman I know who's taught, uh, meditation, mindfulness meditation for many years. He's, he's a good friend of mine and he Sure. Happy to work with these. Speaker 5 01:02:46 Great. Awesome. Speaker 3 01:02:48 Yeah. So, uh, well this is, and also, uh, wanted to ask you, so do you have, does the Magi website you have a, a website or is it just the, you have a special website where people can learn about these project like magi.com or something like that? Speaker 5 01:03:07 Yeah, I should probably should have put this in on the background there. Uh, it's actually ancestral magi.com, uh, is the name of our, uh, our shop where people can go online, Speaker 3 01:03:17 Magi.com. Okay. So people can learn about these projects, products off that website. Okay. Speaker 5 01:03:27 Yeah, we have a, a fairly robust knowledge base, uh, on the product pages as well as our, our blog, which we continually, uh, populate with some of our own new discoveries. And, um, this is, uh, what's, uh, what's next for us and what we're also most excited about is we've released our first few products based on, uh, on beta carboline. And we've got, uh, a number of other products that are coming on the way that are really also just based on exactly what we've talked about here. And Polypharmacology, um, using all legal products always will be a, a supplement that's available off the shelf and can be purchased and used, uh, um, in your own daily practices. Um, uh, and some of them are combining beta Carlenes with other just conventional fruits and, uh, and, and plants that have been well known, but provide some very unique, um, properties when combined together. Speaker 3 01:04:13 Right, right. Food and medicine, there's often a fine line that there's often not that much different, you know, they, they, uh, compliment each other. Who was it? Uh, was it, uh, Dias who said, let your food be your Medicine. Speaker 5 01:04:30 Yeah. Speaker 3 01:04:30 <laugh>. Yeah. Right. All right. Well, gentlemen, thank you very much. This has been a very interesting conversation. Speaker 4 01:04:40 Yeah. So it was our pleasure and, uh, thanks for giving us this opportunity and again, and the first place with S p D 55 to inspire both of us to dig deeper into our, um, ancient histories and like kind of bring these up. So it's an ongoing journey and like, it, it has no end <laugh>. Speaker 3 01:05:00 Absolutely. Well, we look forward to the next E S P D conference. I don't know whether it'll be E S P D 60, probably sooner than that. Maybe E S P D 57.5 or something. But, uh, certainly look forward to, uh, you know, your discoveries that you're in process of making, and we'll be happy to invite you back to the podcast downstream and, uh, and we'll see you pretty soon in New York. Hopefully. So thanks a lot. Thanks. Speaker 4 01:05:34 See you Ron. Great. Thanks Dennis. Oh, is maybe one last thing here. Uh, Shane, should we also, uh, uh, mention for any of, uh, any of the listeners here, uh, special coupon code for, uh, followers of Dennis? Speaker 3 01:05:44 Okay. Speaker 4 01:05:45 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um, so, um, you can just use as, uh, um, you know, like for a 20% discount, you know, like you can use just like Dennis McKenna, this is a, uh, the spelling of, um, Dennis McKenna. And then, um, that's going to be the, the coupon that they can use, you know, uh, in different, just my Speaker 3 01:06:08 Name, those spaces? Speaker 4 01:06:10 Yeah, no, just Dennis McKenna, just all together. Speaker 3 01:06:13 Okay. And of course, I'll get that kickback coming back from you as people look by then. No, no, it's all right. It's all right. That, that's good. Maybe that'll sell a few more, so. Okay. Thanks for letting us know about that and, uh, we'll keep in touch. Thank you. Speaker 4 01:06:33 Thank you so much. Thank you, Dennis. Speaker 3 01:06:35 Okay. See you in New York. Speaker 1 01:06:50 Thank you for listening to Brainforest Cafe with Dennis McKenna. Find us [email protected].