Inside Soltara Healing Center

[Intro] Welcome to Brainforest Café with Dennis McKenna. [00:00:21] Dennis McKenna: Daniel Cleland is CEO of Soltara Healing Center, which has gained worldwide recognition in 2019 as the preeminent Shipibo Healing Center and is now regularly visited by the most prominent influencers, celebrities and public figures. Cleland holds a Masters of Intercultural and International Communication, but he learned his hard knock style of scaling from years of traveling, living and hustling in the merciless Amazon jungles of South America. In addition to supporting the field of ayahuasca healing through Soltara, Cleland has also ventured into the music industry with his heavy metal band Savage Existence, having toured the USA, Latin America and Europe with such acts as Cradle of Filth, Devil Driver, Sepultura, and Cavalera Brothers. In 2021, Cleland published his second book, Twelve Laws of the Jungle, How to Become a Lethal Entrepreneur. As a follow up to his first book, Pulse of the Jungle, Ayahuasca Adventures and Social Enterprise of the Amazon. Cleland resided in Costa Rica with his two beloved husky dogs, but is currently in Peru hosting an ayahuasca retreat for wellness and spirituality influencer Aubrey Marcus. Daniel, it's my pleasure to welcome you to the Brainforest. [00:01:58] Dan Cleland: It's always a pleasure to see you. Thank you for having me on. It's been a while since we've had a good sit down. I think our first podcast was like 3 hours long or something. [00:02:12] Dennis McKenna: No, it's not. I can't do three hour podcasts. We'll try to hold it to an hour, roughly, but there's no hard stop. We'll go that long, and we'll see what else there is to say. So you and I, we met first, if I recall correctly, at the Psychedelic Science Conference in 2019. No, 2017. [00:02:47] Dan Cleland: 2017, yeah, 2017. [00:02:49] Dennis McKenna: Right. And you were just starting this. This whole thing. You hadn't set these, but you had a track record with Pulse tours, or you were the founder of Pulse Tours, that you had just started this Soltara in Costa Rica, gathered at the time that you were a little bit disappointed in Peru or ready to leave Peru and go someplace else. So tell me how that came to be and how it's been since we talked. I haven't seen you in person since 2019. I was at your last retreat there in 2019, and then Covid hit. We both dropped off the radar, kind of, but we stayed in touch. So tell me, what's your adventure been like for the last five years? [00:03:48] Dan Cleland: Right. Well, actually, Dennis, before meeting you, I believe it was. Was it Colorado in 2017? [00:03:59] Dennis McKenna: It was Oakland. [00:04:00] Dan Cleland: It was Oakland. Okay. [00:04:02] Dennis McKenna: Graduated to the big time. Yet this was in a convention Center, I think it was. [00:04:10] Dan Cleland: Right. So that was our first time meeting. But I, you know, I had watched a lot of your content over the years, which played a pivotal role at actually getting me involved in the plant medicine space. And my first intended for into ayahuasca was to go to a retreat that you were hosting in Puerto Maldonado, I believe, in 2010. [00:04:38] Dennis McKenna: So this one good thing, you didn't go to that one. That was a disaster. [00:04:45] Dan Cleland: Yeah. So meeting you, meeting you in person kind of felt like I had already known you from watching your many documentaries and videos and like many people do, paying attention to your content when you get the call or the urge to explore plant medicine because you're such a prominent figure, you and, of course, your late brother Terrence. But we did meet there in Colorado, and you're correct in saying I was coming off of a multi year journey in Peru in Iquitos and in and around Iquitos, and I was a younger man at that point, too. So the concept of backpacking and staying in jungle lodges was much more attractive to me back then. Right. [00:05:34] Dennis McKenna: I resonate with that. Yes. [00:05:38] Dan Cleland: Being tired of the Amazon, of living in the Amazon jungle, was only partly related to Peru itself and the Amazon itself, and partly related to just me getting older and seeking more comfort, I guess you could say, in life and a stationary place to hang my hat kind of thing. So, yeah, we had a great time in Peru, was a beautiful part of life for me personally and for many people that were involved in the project. It was kind of the first. The first iteration of starting something, starting a business for me. Right. And it was about as beautiful as you could get showing up to the jungle town of Libertad and saying, hey, I want to start an ayahuasca center. Can you guys help? And, you know, doing a little presentation in front of the villagers. And getting some land granted to me, just free for use, provided I could create some jobs from the villagers. So that was a beautiful journey. [00:06:46] Dennis McKenna: And when was that, Daniel? can you place that in time? That was pretty far back. Right ? To start the Pulse tours. When you started your. Your thing in Peru? When was that correct? [00:07:02] Dan Cleland: Yeah. So I started running retreats in Peru, and I think 2011 or 2012. Actually went out on a limb and built a center in 2014. So I think it was about May or June when I just had quit my job. I landed in Peru, and I was determined to build this center and had already laid out some, I guess, ideas and some plans and went to talk to the villagers, and I think we started construction a few months before the first retreat was meant to open. And Peru is a little bit different than some other places where maybe a little bit more informal in terms of building a jungle lodge out in the middle of the Amazon. You can kind of just get some guys to go out on canoes and cut down some trees and slice off some planks with the chainsaw and put up a jungle lodge. [00:07:59] Dennis McKenna: You just do that. You don't have to apply for permits or things like that. None of that. [00:08:05] Dan Cleland: Yeah. [00:08:05] Dennis McKenna: Yeah. So you built this lodge? [00:08:11] Dan Cleland: Built the lodge, and live that lifestyle. It was beautiful. It was a dream. Very adventurous, living out in the middle of the jungle. I know you're aficionado of the Amazon yourself. You know, the majesty and the. The primality of it, being out there and seeing all the animals in their natural habitat and just the energy and the vibe is very unique and very cool. The problem that I had specifically with that place is that in order to get there, I had to spend a lot of time in Iquitos, and Iquitos is not my favorite place on earth. [00:08:48] Dennis McKenna: I get you on that. Yeah. Not the most charming city in the world, but it's interesting, but, yeah, it's. The less time spent there, the better, in some ways. [00:09:03] Dan Cleland: Yeah. I've heard from. There's some people here at this retreat right now coming from Iquitos, and their updates are that since the COVID lockdowns happened, you know, the tourism industry has degraded even more. So there's a little more of a sense of desperation and hopelessness there. So it's gotten a little bit more nasty in terms of crime and in terms of poverty and just lack of desirability, from what I've been told by people who are here. So, you know, that's unfortunate. And I think that, you know. It's an unfortunate hub for such a beautiful natural environment. It's unfortunate that the hub has. It's almost like a necessary evil in a certain way, but anyway, so I don't want to knock Iquitos too much, but, yeah, we got out of Peru in 2017. I was fortunate enough to find a buyer for that center and then went and did a round 2 with the years of experience that I had of growing and building and running a business and an Ayahuasca center and came up to Costa Rica and found a beautiful spot on the beach and was able to bring together a group of people who believed in the mission and believed in what we were doing. That included several guests and clients from the previous enterprise who had experienced the team and experienced the programs, and also with the number of family and friends who had not only seen the journey of the business over the years, but my own personal journey as a man coming into age through working with the medicine itself. Right. So they believed in it from, you know, firsthand evidence. And so we built Soltara in 2017 and. And opened in 2018. Going back to the previous point about permits, it was a bit of a rude awakening, starting to build a project in Costa Rica. Because the overbearing bureaucracy of Costa Rica is much different than Peru and perhaps even North America. [00:11:31] Dennis McKenna: I'll bet. We think of Peru as fairly bureaucratic, but I'm sure Costa Rica in comparison, is much worse. It's closer to it would be in the States or Canada. You need permits for everything. When you decided to open your retreat in Costa Rica, were you upfront with them about what you were doing? How does Costa Rica view these. These amazonian traditions being transplanted to Costa Rica? Were there issues around that? [00:12:09] Dan Cleland: Well, there's two questions. I was upfront with the local municipality when I was going to pitch the project and ask for some grease on the wheels, I guess you could say, of all the permitting processes and the various different strange legal requirements that they have in Costa Rica, especially around beachfront property. So I was upfront with them. I did use our example of Peru helping a village to really attain prosperity in the middle of the Amazon, where there was otherwise no other form of employment. So I did present that. We did keep it pretty low key in terms of the federal government for a while. But after a couple of years of working there, the federal government did catch wind of what we were doing and called us into their office, and we basically just accommodated their wishes, even though they didn't really know what we were doing, they knew what we were doing, but they didn't really know the practice by experience very well. You know, they hadn't taken ayahuasca, and reading about it online. [00:13:29] Dennis McKenna: Right. [00:13:30] Dan Cleland: The legal status was that they essentially said, this is not explicitly legal. It's also not explicitly illegal. So we're going to let you do it, provided you set up a clinic on site and hire a local doctor to check people before and after they imbibe the medicine at your facility, so we have clearance. They're covering their butts, if you will, by ensuring there's a local doctor that has Spanish translated checkups and vital signs and psychological, not a psychological evaluation, but just a general. Okay, this person looks okay. So I'm going to sign off on them. So we are now working in collaboration with the Costa rican Ministry of Health. What was the second question you asked me there? [00:14:22] Dennis McKenna: Well, that you basically answered it, you know, just was wondering how that worked, you know, and you, one of the models is not typical. I mean, you had a center in Peru, you were working with the Shipibo community, and then you kind of transplanted those people or that community to Costa Rica. You brought the curanderos up from Pucalpa, I guess it is. So medicine. And you must have had some challenges importing the medicine. [00:14:58] Dan Cleland: Well, we did when we were importing it. Right. So in the beginning we had the same producer from Peru who was making the medicine for our peruvian center, and we were basically just bringing it across the border. There was no issues until basically the lockdowns, when the security just tightened up and they started asking a lot more questions and checking a lot of bags. And also we couldn't travel during their lockdown. So, I mean, it basically eliminated. And Peru was locked down for much longer than Costa Rica was. So Costa Rica, after about six or seven months of lockdown, and Peru was locked down for at least a year. So when we opened back up. We could not physically even get anybody to Peru to recollect the medicine, to collect the medicine. So we had to find a source in Costa Rica. And fortunately, there are people in Costa Rica who grow medicine and it's really, really nice. Actually, one of them was introduced to you by me, whose farm I visited not too long ago, who actually, I think, if I'm correct, brought ayahuasca up from Peru like 40 years ago from one of the clones that you and your brother collected. Yeah. [00:16:27] Dennis McKenna: Was this. What was the guy's name? [00:16:30] Dan Cleland: Tom. [00:16:31] Dennis McKenna: Tom Ray, right, correct. [00:16:33] Dan Cleland: Yeah. [00:16:33] Dennis McKenna: Yes. So you can. So, right, you know, when I was coming there regularly and we were talking regularly, I urged you to find local sources, if possible. Sounds like you did. And that must have simplified things rather than trying to import it from Peru. But could you get the admixture plants? Did he have all those as well? [00:16:59] Dan Cleland: Tom did it. And, you know, just. We haven't actually. We haven't actually sourced much from him. [00:17:08] Dennis McKenna: Oh, really? [00:17:09] Dan Cleland: He had this, all this 40 year old ayahuasca that had basically over overgrown all the trees. I want you to check it out. I mean, there's just, it is literally on every single tree growing up. Every single tree. It's incredible. But they had chopped down most of it a few years ago because it was just killing all the trees. So a lot of what's growing now is very juvenile. And they did get some admixture plants. So I was able to collect some admixture plants that just mix with our other brew to make it a little bit more colorful, let's say. But the source, we have another source down in the southern kind of jungles of Costa Rica who has been growing medicine there for 10 or 12 years. So there's good, there's good thick vines and they just keep scaling up their production of admixture plants. So we have it basically prepared there by a really talented group of people who cook it with love and care and send it to us. And people love it. It's very sweet. They kind of use a type of cooking that's like a combination between how our Shipibo shamans have instructed them to cook and how their kind of upbringing in the Santo Daime tradition is. So this, you know, the Santo Daime medicine is a lot lighter. It's a lot milkier, it's a lot sweeter. And so we kind of have this convert, this combination that tastes honey like. We've actually had a number of people ask us if we directly put honey into our medicine, but we don't, of course. [00:18:58] Dennis McKenna: Right, right. Well, it sounds like you've managed to find sustainable sources and that's really important. You know, I mean, that's one of the challenges with Peru, I guess, in anywhere. But mostly in Peru, you know, not enough is being cultivated. People are going to into the jungle and harvesting these 50 year old vines and it's putting pressure on it. So, you know, one thing I always respected about the way that you were doing things was you were, you know, you were respectful, you were aware of all these issues because of your work in Peru. You were aware of the supply issues, the communities and so on. You were, you know, went out of your way to ensure that the medicine was good from a reliable source. The people, the shipibo healers that you worked with, you had to cultivate those relationships over years. And I guess you succeeded because they've been working with you all this time. They wouldn't be if you weren't treating them well, you know, and that's important. And I also. When I was at Soltra, the few times I was there, I was really impressed with your approach to the whole thing. [00:20:27] Dan Cleland: He means a lot. Thank you. [00:20:28] Dennis McKenna: You really went out of your way to inform people ahead of time, make sure people were prepared and in the right mind frame to have these sessions. And that's really, that's really an important thing. You provided lots of opportunities for people to integrate and deal with the content, and I just thought in some ways that the way you were doing it, and this is what I told people that I recommended, go to Soltara. I just said, these people do it right. They have it working on all levels. The source of the medicine, the people they work with. And the guests. Guests, they may come there in all sorts of states of readiness for this because these are profound, transformative experiences. But you made sure that guests were aware of it and just treated well and prepared, and I always thought that was the right approach. [00:21:40] Dan Cleland: Well, I have to give all the credit to the team. You know. They're a group of consummate professionals from years and years of experience who have come from various different other centers. And just imagine someone working in the field for 15 or 20 years. You know, [00:22:04] Dan Cleland: They've been around the block. They've worked with a number of different healers. They perhaps worked with a number of different traditions. They've perhaps done a number of different dietas, plant diets, perhaps worked at a number of different centers, learning different practices of different places. So fortunately, we've been able enough. Fortunately, we've been able to have enough of a gravitational pull for the consonant professionals in the field to come and not only work for a time period, whether that's a couple months, a year, for a couple of years, or whether that is, you know, full time for five or seven years or whatever it is. But even if they've only worked with us for a short period of time, we've been able to build up a body of knowledge and really codify a body of knowledge and best practices into our core company ethos and our core company business practices that has outlasted anyone who's come and gone over the years. And a lot of times those practices have been analyzed by other people who have come and gone over the years, and they've added their two cent here. And I said, we either need to do this or not need to do that. So, you know, I really do give all the credit when it comes to the operational prowess of the company. I do give all the credit to the team. I really don't have much, you know, hands on, hands on impact on the operational flow of the day to day. You know, these are all coming. It's all coming from professionals. I'm not trying to rewrite the book or create some kind of proprietary program that's not grounded in the experience of so many professionals and the healers themselves. [00:23:58] Dennis McKenna: Well, that's a sign of a good CEO, basically. And that's how you think of yourself as the sort of plant medicine entrepreneur. And we can talk about that, but the fact that you can put together a team that you have confidence in and you could walk away from it, you don't have to be there. I mean, someone I think that was considering, going to Soltara. That I'd recommended said, yeah, I don't see Dan Cleland anywhere. Who´s Dan Cleveland, he's not on this website. You know, I looked at the website and you know what? You're not there. And then we had some correspondence about it. He basically said, I don't need to be there on the website. People might get the wrong impression. I'm a white extern Harrow, and I'm a businessman and so on. But business, let's face it, ayahuasca tourism is a business. And that that's okay. It can be done ethically and aboveboard, which is where I think you're at. And it can be done very sleazily. And we all know tales of people that have gone to retreats and the people are kind of shady. Everybody from the Curanderos to the people running it. And it's just. You don't get a good feeling. I never got that feeling with Soltara when I was there. I got the feeling that I was with people who understood this medicine, who cared about it, and who really understood how to introduce people to it and make sure everybody got out better than they. Than they were when they came in. And that's one of the issues. You know, there are all sorts of, you know, choosing to be an entrepreneur in the area of Ayahuasca. Tourism is a real challenge because, you know, there, it's a multifaceted thing and it can easily go off rails. But you've been successful and you've actually, you know, made. You've been successful. It's been successful as a business and the quality of the experiences you deliver to people. Well, not you, but your team, you know, is. I don't know what the word is. You know, I would say, you know, we can put the good housekeeping seal of approval or something on your ayahuasca retreats, you know, and so that continues. But then that more or less continues. Do you feel like you can sustain this now? I mean, you've had to give up a couple sites. You got overstretched a little bit. Maybe you think you´re, and you mentioned earlier, the industry has slowed down, at least in Peru. Not so many people are coming to ayahuasca retreats, at least around the Iquitos anymore. So is the end what, what's happening with this industry? Where is it going to be in five years or ten years? Or do you think about that. Do you worry about that? [00:27:26] Dan Cleland: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I think I have a term for this. I call it the democratization of ayahuasca. And, you know, it's, when you see these big conferences like MAPS and all of these influencers sharing their stories and bringing ayahuasca to the masses and the Netflix documentaries and everything else, it brings a massive amount of public awareness to the medicine. So it creates a massive amount of interest. But I think in parallel to that, you've seen a massive amount of people offering facilitator courses and a massive amount of people taking apprenticeships with different healers. So let's say five or ten years ago, you had a big explosion of interest, but it was all based in South America. The service providers were basically all based in South America. It was illegal. And all 50 states and Canada and Mexico, and there were no service providers in Costa Rica. So it was that public interest translated to which center do I go to? Right? And all the centers were based in Iquitos or in Brazil in some cases, or in Colombia in some cases, but there was never a question of, you know, do I go, I got five friends on my block that are, you know, shamans and. Or have taken apprenticeships and, you know, have medicine or, like, you know, offer weekend ceremonies or, you know, my buddy knows shaman from Peru who's coming up and doing a tour of the US and bringing his own medicine. And kind of, you know, there's just, I think the options have dramatically increased, which I think is good for the medicine. Right. It's good for the plants getting around. And, I mean, just look at Costa Rica, like, in terms of the supply side, seeing how well ayahuasca grows in Costa Rica. I mean, there's no chance of ayahuasca going extinct, certainly not in Costa Rica. It grows. It grows like a weed there. Like, it literally grows like a weed. They said we have to cut this down because it grows like a weed and it takes over all the trees. It just grows and grows and grows. So, you know, the medicine is certainly making its way around the world, and I think people have lost a lot of fear about taking it in the wrong place, for example. But especially if they're doing it in one of the many stateside options. Right. I mean, you're living in British Columbia right now. How often are there ceremonies happening all around that? [00:30:24] Dennis McKenna: Vancouver. [00:30:24] Dan Cleland: Vancouver Islands. It's ubiquitous. Toronto. Right. There's many of these things going on. [00:30:29] Dennis McKenna: So, yeah, everywhere. I believe there are opportunities. I haven't gone out of my way to connect with that, but that's definitely going on everywhere. [00:30:41] Dan Cleland: So, you know, now it used to be. It used to be a friendly competition between ayahuasca centers, and now, now it's a, you know, there's an extra step there where you have to convince people that it's better to go to a center than. Than just go down the street and do some ceremonies with their buddy or with, you know, anyone who's taken an apprenticeship, so. [00:31:11] Dennis McKenna: Right. [00:31:11] Dan Cleland: It's added a little, I think. I think, you know, while the demand is, is highly prevalent right now and is, is doing very well and ayahuasca is being democratized and spread amongst the people and many different ways that are, you know, less expensive. And it's perhaps not necessarily great for the retreat center business, you know, because, you know, in order to have a full scale production, you need to have a lot of staff, which all come with salaries and. [00:31:43] Dennis McKenna: Yeah, people have options now. Yeah. Yeah. You have to have an infrastructure and, like you say, salaries and staff and maintenance and all that, you know. But on the other hand, there is a certain demographic of people that can afford this. [00:32:02] Dan Cleland: Yeah. [00:32:02] Dennis McKenna: And that's okay. If they have the money, they're going to spend it somewhere. I mean, they could spend it taking yacht trips on the Caribbean or something, or they could go to ayahuasca retreats and that's. They'll probably enter people before they go to an ayahuasca retreat, you know, the rather wealthy demographic that tends to be attracted to these things. I mean, I've always. Please go ahead. [00:32:33] Dan Cleland: Yeah, I think, like, we certainly have a high value to the right people. Right. And I think there's always going to be a place for that, but its just a matter of like you touched on earlier, do we have one place or two places or three places or four places? Right. You really have to match. And this is the entrepreneur talking, I guess, the supply with the demand, right. You don't want to have. In a perfect world, you have exactly the same amount of supply as you do demand, so that you're always bold, but, you know, you, I guess, aren't denying a bunch of people either. So I think, you know, we did, and we're not alone because I do keep in contact with a number of other retreat centers as well. And everyone's kind of gone through the same pains as we have. First of all, it was the Black Swan event in 2020 with the lockdowns, so we had to navigate that. But that was a short term event, and something that was unexpected and following that was a massive spike in demand because everyone was locked in their homes for six months or a year or what have you, and everybody had saved up a bunch of money because they might not have been spending it on. On travel or on going out as much because they were restricted. So there's a high, high degree of household savings, low, you know, customer debt, like, no, low credit card debt, things like the economic conditions. People had cash on hand. So, so there was a fairly significant surge after the world started opening up again. And I think we responded to that by creating more supply on the infrastructure side. So all of that extra infrastructure comes with investments and things like that, and you have to build up your team and train people and everything like that. And I think just that wave has, has tapered. And so we're kind of trying to find the equalized ground right now where, you know, how big do we need to be to serve the, you know, the demand that we have and, you know, being able to keep everybody well paid. And keep all the customers well served and not. Not, you know, not bite off more than we can chew, so to speak, to, but also not miss out on what opportunities might exist. [00:35:27] Dennis McKenna: Right. And so you, based on all these things happening post Covid, you decided to open up these other centers and another in Costa Rica and two in Peru. [00:35:41] Dan Cleland: Well, yeah, not at the same time. [00:35:43] Dennis McKenna: Not at the same time. [00:35:46] Dan Cleland: Yeah. [00:35:46] Dennis McKenna: So proved to be a little more than you bit off, a little more than you could chew and that because you couldn't keep them all filled, obviously. Maybe the market is not as big as you thought. [00:36:02] Dan Cleland: Well, particularly on the peruvian side, because 90% of our clientele are from North America. Right. From United States or Canada. So, it's just an additional, what, 5 hours of. Of time in an airplane and then you have to do connection in Lima and then, you know, go up to. [00:36:28] Dennis McKenna: Just to get there. [00:36:29] Dan Cleland: More expensive, more days off work, you know. So, you know. We thought that maybe, you know, once Peru opened up, there would be a lot more interest in coming down to the birthplace of the medicine and then, you know, where I'm in the sacred Valley right now, and it's beautiful here, but, you know, people are creatures of convenience, there's no doubt about that. And we're all busy professionals, especially in the cohort of people who like to go, you know, take their yearly vacation or their semi yearly vacation and go do an ayahuasca retreat for seven days. You know, it's best that they could just take a week off and fly down from New Jersey or from Texas or from, you know, Nevada or whatever, and, you know, and 4 hours or 5 hours maximum, you're in Costa Rica and you stay in a hotel. The next morning someone picks you up on a bus and you go straight to the center, you get your retreat going, right. So I think we underestimated the resistance of, of the general kind of, you know, populist to spend any extra days and the extra money to get down to the birthplace of Ayahuasca when they're just immediate options in Costa Rica. So we're kind of on our tail end of running retreats in Peru and we're just going to stick to where we live in Costa Rica. You know, just go with the flow there. We've got an, we actually got a really beautiful second facility opening up in, sorry, Montezuma. Or if you're familiar with Montezuma, it's not far from where the original Soltara location is. It's about an hour away or something. But it's, I think, a 40 acre, 40 hectare property. It's got two rivers, it's got a waterfall. It's called the sanctuary at two rivers. And we literally just opened up bookings there. So we're. As of August, we're out of Peru, and as of November, you know, of course, we have our original location up Playa Blanca. And then as of November, we have a secondary location, which is a smaller location. So the group sizes will only be twelve to 14 participants. So we're not trying to bite off more than we can chew, just, you know, a little extra than. Than what we can handle at Playa Blanca. So we'll see how that goes. And hopefully it goes well. [00:39:01] Dennis McKenna: But at least you only have two places to maintain and in the same neighborhood. Right. I mean, this makes a lot of sense, given the business reality of the situation. So. So, you know, and you didn't get where you are by making bad business decisions. So I think. I think this is great. I think this is good. I think that will ensure that Soltara. I mean, is everything done under the brand name Soltara, like the other treat center as well? That's Soltara, too. You've got. But then that's the umbrella for these two centers and the ones in Peru as well, which will go away. [00:39:54] Dan Cleland: Yeah, I mean, yeah, so we basically, we own the one property at Playa Blanca, and then we've just been renting, long term renting other properties for whatever expansion initiatives we've taken. So, you know, we have a deal with this other place, and we've got the site rented from November to April. So that's basically, you know, high season, and hopefully, you know, hopefully that plays out well. I mean, we're looking forward to it. It's a good contrast to the playa Blanca location as well, because, I mean, the Playa Blanca, as you know, is kind of like this very odd, very beachy, very kind of arid, utter. Yeah, I think you were there during the hot season, like, during the dry season one year, and it was in there. [00:40:43] Dennis McKenna: It is, yeah. [00:40:45] Dan Cleland: Yeah, yeah. So, so, I mean, as you know, Costa Rica has, I think, 17 different microclimates or something. So, you know, then at least it's. It's not two identical beachfront locations. It's, you know, one hot, arid beachfront location and then a place that's more jungley and it's, you know, more freshwater river and, you know, go swimming in the waterfall instead of it on the beach. And, you know, the buildings even are kind of built up in the. In the foliage and stuff like that as well. So it offers a bit of a contrast to perhaps complete the circle and. Yeah, perhaps. I think people are going to like it. [00:41:33] Dennis McKenna: So I think I got to come down and look at it. I'd like to visit the new place. Yeah. And the old place, for that matter. So are you working in Peru right now? Are you working with Aubrey is on this particular retreat, is he is. [00:41:55] Dan Cleland: See, some people. [00:41:57] Dennis McKenna: I'm not sure what your business relationship is. This is his gig. The place where you're at right now? [00:42:05] Dan Cleland: Well, no. So we've rented this place until August, and we're basically just. We're doing a private retreat for Aubrey Marcus and his crew here. We've organized kind of a special program for them based on just individual desires from Aubrey. You know, we brought in a special shaman to work here, kind of with the Soltara programming. Well, the Soltara operational experience, or container, I guess you can say. We have a guest shaman here that Aubrey has been wanting to work with for a while. So, basically, it's just bespoke a custom retreat that we're doing. And so I'll be here for a week just to kind of oversee things. And going to do a couple of ceremonies as well. We had the first ceremony of the week last night, and it went very well. And we've got a day off today and another retreat tomorrow, so only three retreats this week with a day off in between and, you know, late breakfast and a little more. A little more rest time. So, you know, people don't get too exhausted up here in the high altitude. [00:43:27] Dennis McKenna: And you get a chance tour some of the sites, maybe. You know, I always liked organizing retreats in the sacred valley because there's so much stuff, you know, you could go to Machu Picchu and Pisac and all over, and that was always good for our room. [00:43:46] Dan Cleland: For your viewers, just for the video here, I'll just kind of show you a bit of the journey that we have. Love that you had these gigantic mountains on all sides, and, um, it's just very, very, very beautiful and very. [00:44:02] Dennis McKenna: Looks like a nice place. [00:44:07] Dennis McKenna: I love the sacred valley. One of my favorite places in the world. You know, I organized my retreats from about. Well, from about 2012. 2012? Yeah, until 2019, when it all ended. But I organized my retreat at Willka T´ika, which is not far from where you are now. It's a lovely place, and I've known the owner. Have you ever been there? Have you ever visited there? [00:44:40] Dan Cleland: No, I haven't. I have not. Are you planning to keep going back there. Are you still planning to follow through with your original vision, or is that kind of less important? [00:44:50] Dennis McKenna: Well, we're trying to make this nonprofit, McKenna Academy make it fly, but we did pull off this symposium in the UK, ESPD55, two years ago, and that was the last big event that we did. We did a retreat in December, mostly for funders, mostly a fundraiser for the McKenna Academy. We only had, I think, about ten guests, but to be at Wasihuasca, which is Luis Eduardo's place in Florianopolis, and that's the last event that we've done. But interestingly, I shouldn't say too much about it, but we're planning to hopefully. We're trying to organize a forum on coca where the central focus of the thing will be about coca and coca policy and all this. We're hoping to do that event at Willka T´ika maybe this fall, you know. [00:46:02] Dan Cleland: You guys gonna be doing any extracts there? [00:46:05] Dennis McKenna: Not really. It's more or less talking to people about, about coca and the need to sort of destigmatize it because, as you know, coca's got a bad rep because it's a source of cocaine. [00:46:20] Dan Cleland: I had a coca tea this morning here, you know, like, for the altitude. [00:46:24] Dennis McKenna: Everyone knows that coca is just a very useful medicine. It's not dangerous. It's great. It's great material. That's great stuff. And we had Wade Davis and Andy Weil at the ESPD55 conference, gave great talks about coca, and they're both very interested in the idea. If you could change the conversation about coca and make people realize that unrefined coca as it's used traditionally is not only not harmful, but quite beneficial. And, you know, I mean, it's about as dangerous as green tea in that form. But it's got this stigma because of the source of cocaine. They're very interested in doing this policy forum, and we're thinking of doing it in or at Willka T´ikka because many of Wade's contacts would be coming from Colombia. I don't know if we're going to be able to do this, but we're going to give it a shot. We're looking for supporters and to pull off this conference. So I'll keep you posted. I probably shouldn't even be talking about it because we don't know if we're going to do it. On the other hand, maybe if I talk about it, maybe people who come forward and want to support it because. [00:47:56] Dan Cleland: I'll check it out, man. Yeah. I'm a big fan of the coca plant. [00:48:01] Dennis McKenna: Yeah, it's a wonderful plant. Wade Davis has been a promoter of it for many years, and he just published a new book called beneath the surface, and included in that is a chapter, his talk about coca divine leaf of immortality. And I'll send you the text to that. I mean, it's a fantastic essay. He's going to be on the podcast in a few weeks, and we're going to. [00:48:35] Dan Cleland: Oh, nice. [00:48:37] Dennis McKenna: You know him, right? You've met him. [00:48:40] Dan Cleland: I've never. I don't think I've ever met him, but I've heard, like, I know he's a total legend. One of my professors from university was a big fan of his and talked about him quite a bit. And she knew that, you know, this is, you know, I was still a young man at that point, but She knew that I was kind of entering this world of, you know, Amazon and plant medicine and everything like that. [00:49:11] Dennis McKenna: Yeah. [00:49:11] Dan Cleland: So she really. She really pushed Wade Davis on me. Like, you got to check this guy out. Like, you've got to read his stuff and you've got to. You know, this guy's doing a lot of crazy stuff down the Amazon. [00:49:23] Dennis McKenna: Yeah. And he still is. I mean, now he's not so much working in the Amazon. And, I mean, you know, he became a respected professor at UBC and all of that. And now I think he's about to retire from that. But his new book is fantastic. I mean, just the most intelligent set of essays on a variety of topics, including coca, climate change, and so on. Well worth checking out. I'll send you links after the talk. And I'll send you a link to his talk. Yeah, but anyway, we're not really here to talk about Wade. We're here to talk about you. But, uh, so are you still working with some of the people I know from Soltara? [00:50:17] Dan Cleland: Yes. Well, you know Sylvia. You know Melissa, right? [00:50:21] Dennis McKenna: Um, she was there at the first one. Yeah. [00:50:25] Dan Cleland: Did you meet Carolina? [00:50:27] Dennis McKenna: Yes, I did. [00:50:29] Dan Cleland: Yep. So she's doing intakes now. I'm not sure who else was there the last time you were there? [00:50:37] Dennis McKenna: Well, Melissa is.. [00:50:40] Dan Cleland: Yeah. [00:50:41] Dennis McKenna: She's working with. Yeah. Well, of course, I saw you all at the right conference. How was that for you? You must have gotten a lot of attention from that conference. [00:50:55] Dan Cleland: Well, see, that's kind of one of the strange things that I've been trying to analyze. Right. But, you know, and a lot of people, you know, a lot of people know about, like, for example, you know, we. After that conference, you know, we were at this huge psychedelic science conference. And many people know who we are. Many people know what we do. And there's a certain. There's a certain, I don't know, a presence that comes along with that. So we come away from the conferences, you know, and we recognize that, okay, we're, you know, we're kind of famous in the industry, you know, like a lot of people know who we are. A lot of people have had life changing experiences, so, you know, I guess it's good to get some FaceTime in, but, you know, I don't think we really saw a massive, massive influx of bookings that might make the extreme cost of going there worthwhile, you know? So, you know, I guess those things. We kind of stopped going to conferences, but, of course, the psychedelic science conference happens every four years. Right. So, yeah, you know, you have to go there. Like, you have to check that out, and it's so cool. And also, you got to put some facetime in with all the people in the field. Right. [00:52:24] Dennis McKenna: Right. You have to go to that one. I feel the same way about conferences, but as much of a zoo as that one is, you just can't skip it, you know? I mean, yeah, that's the nexus of all of it, and it was a zoo. [00:52:40] Dan Cleland: Cutting edge. It really is. I mean, it's never been done before, ever, in history. [00:52:44] Dennis McKenna: Right. [00:52:45] Dan Cleland: And the fact that it's grown so much, like, from 2017 to 2022 or what. When was a, like, what? [00:52:54] Dennis McKenna: Last year? 2023? [00:52:56] Dan Cleland: Last 2023. So, you know, I guess it postponed it because of the walk downs. But, yeah, I mean, the amount of growth just in that amount of time, it was absolutely staggering. This is extremely impressive. So not only do you need to kind of go put in some facetime for your profession, but it's just a spectacle. You know, it's a spectacle. And there's all kinds of really cool people there. There's all kinds of talks that, you know, happen all day long in several different auditoriums. Right. I think there were three different auditoriums or something. [00:53:34] Dennis McKenna: Yeah. [00:53:35] Dan Cleland: I've had, you know, talks going on all day long. [00:53:39] Dennis McKenna: It's hard to. Hard to keep up with it. That's right. And when I go to gigs like this, I mean, for me, I guess I'm too well known, and, like, it's hard to get. [00:53:50] Dan Cleland: Oh, yeah. Everybody's trying to get a signature. [00:53:52] Dennis McKenna: Everybody wants a conversation on itself. [00:53:55] Dan Cleland: Oh, my God. [00:53:56] Dennis McKenna: And that's fine. I mean, I'm basically a curmudgeon, but I try to be friendly, you know, better. It. Yeah, it was okay. I mean, it was good. It was not something that I could really not go to, you know? And so we gave a talk about the academy, and it was well received and, like that, you know. [00:54:20] Dan Cleland: I'm surprised you don't have, like, secret service with you in those events, man, because every time I see you got about four people standing in front of you and about four other people in line trying to get, you know, trying to get some attention from you, and you're trying to have conversations with people, but then you have other people interrupting you and you're kind of trying to make time for everybody, but it looks like it must be exhausting. [00:54:43] Dennis McKenna: Well, it is exhausting. Sometimes. I don't, if I reach the point where I need Secret Service, I'm gonna put down my, put down my baton or whatever. I don't think I'm hated, so I don't think Secret Service is necessary. You know, handlers maybe, you know, publicists, but, you know, it's, yeah, it's, it's just a very interesting, it's a very intense situation at that conference. But, but that was good. I'm glad I went. And probably we'll go back to the next one. So, also, we've completely failed to mention, except in your biography, you're a performer. You got it all, couple albums, and you've been working with different bands in the UK and US, Europe, and so on. [00:55:43] Dan Cleland: Yeah. Oh, it's not an interesting foray into, into, you know, trying to satisfy a teenage dream when you're 40 years old, you know. You know, we've got, we've got a lot of it. We squeeze a lot of the juice out of it. I think. I think to take it all the way, it would require more of my time and investment than I'm willing to offer. And, you know, the, the relative payoff, I think, for musicians these days is quite small compared to the investment you've got to put into, both in terms of time and financial investment. So as much as when I was real about it getting started a few years ago, a couple years ago, thinking about playing in stadiums and stuff like that, I think I have a much more pragmatic and realistic approach right now, which is probably I should be an entrepreneur, running, starting and running businesses, and I'll be much happier doing that. And then if I do well at that, I'll have enough disposable income to spend on taking the band out for a month long tour every year, maybe a month long tour in the fall, a month long tour in the spring. [00:57:17] Dennis McKenna: Yeah. [00:57:18] Dan Cleland: And, you know, pay for all the bus rentals and the plane tickets and the hotels and the meals and all that kind of stuff. So, I mean, it's fun, and we're still. And some of the guys in the band are really you know, professional musicians who are still, they have a vision. So we'll see if, we'll see if something happens. But you know, I think, I think I know where I'm at personally, which is, you know, I like my home, I like my dogs, I like Costa Rica. And you know, if I'm going to spend a whole bunch of time and effort on building a business, it's probably going to be something that pays a little bit better than the music industry, you know? [00:58:02] Dennis McKenna: So let's hope so. Yeah. The whole industry. It's hard to make money for the performers. Well, it sounds like you've really changed in some ways over the last five years or so. In a good way. You've become more grounded, more sort of realistic, but you're still committed to the vision and, you know, the way that you've, the businesses you've created and so on. Demonstrate that. [00:58:36] Dan Cleland: Well, I'm like, I'm mid forties now man. You know, there's like, there's mid 40. You reach a certain, you reach a certain, you know, you, life comes in phases and you're a lot different when you're late thirties than you are when you're mid forties. I think, you know, you have signals from your body, you have signals from, you know, the society that, yo man, it's time to kind of just grow up a little bit here. And you can drive hard and burp the can at both ends and push it. But it hurts a different way when you're older. You got to be a little bit more. [00:59:15] Dennis McKenna: You gotta use that term older carefully. Wait till you get to seventies Daniel. That's where I'm at. I turned 73 last year, you know. [00:59:28] Dan Cleland: And you were a bit of a rebel when you were younger. Were you one of those guys who thought you'd never make it past 40. [00:59:34] Dennis McKenna: Pretty much. Pretty much. I was surprised. But here I am. [00:59:39] Dan Cleland: And here you are at mid seventies. Yeah. [00:59:41] Dennis McKenna: Yeah. And so far so good. You know, although I definitely had some health challenges. But you know, who doesn't at that age? You know, you look great and I'm really happy to see that you're doing well. And it's all going on where. Where are you gonna be in five years? Where do you see yourself? Or do you even think about. You'll be five years? [01:00:12] Dan Cleland: Well I'll be in five years. I'll be 47 going on 48. [01:00:16] Dennis McKenna: Oh man, you're so young, you're so young, you're a child compared to me. [01:00:27] Dan Cleland: Oh, I guess it's all relative, right? [01:00:30] Dennis McKenna: Exactly. You're as old as you feel. [01:00:33] Dan Cleland: I mean, I still, I still hang out. I still hang out with people that are young, you know, I mean, my girlfriend's just slightly above half my age, for example. And, you know, my friends, I still hang out with cool dudes that are still in their thirties and we go out to cool parties and stuff like that. So, you know, it's all relative. I think probably just the recovery time is a little bit worse. But in five years, in five years, I would estimate I'm probably not much different than where am I now? You know, I, have a really great group of friends, in Costa Rica. We got, you know, guys in their sixties to guys in their twenties, you know, so kind of have that range. [01:01:23] Dennis McKenna: Yep. [01:01:24] Dan Cleland: And you see, see, it's, it's kind of like, okay, well, I see how the guys in their sixties are doing it right now, you know and that's kind of sets a bit of a target for me, you know? So as long as, you know, like I'm focusing on my health pretty well right now, doing a lot of eating well and cooking a lot of food at home and doing a lot of physical training and stuff. So as long as there's a good balance between that and the fun times, then I think you're still probably pretty good, you know, going forward. And then, you know, I just, I always have ideas of different things I want to start up and do. And right now, right now I just am starting up a couple of companies in Costa Rica with a group of friends, all my buddies from Costa Rica, we basically locked down a local landholder who has, I think, 2000 hectares up in the cloud forest of Cerro de la Muerte. And he's got the, he's got a highly productive water spring on his site straight from the mountains. I mean, there's Quetzals up there, there's, there's tapirs, there's all, it's just absolutely pristine thousand year old trees. And he's got, he's got a license to bottle this water, this abundant water that comes out of the mountain right out of the spring. Myself and some other guys are developing a business with that, with a landholder. And then we've got another company that's, that's under development where we're actually brewing a very, let's call, I won't give away the secrets, but let's call it a very healthy tequila Seltzer that has probiotics and organic ingredients and also brewed in the same area with the same water from the same mountain. So, you know, basically just a fun drink that is not made with artificial ingredients and artificial flavors and bottled in some factory, but also bottled up in the mountains of Costa Rica. So maybe in five years, I'll be. I'll be more involved in the consumer packaged goods industry, but we'll see how that all. [01:03:44] Dennis McKenna: Well, the beautiful thing is you have a long time to do this. I mean, you're only mid forties. You've got decades in front of you to do all these things. You're gonna be healthy. You have no lack of ideas. You have the medicine to help you, you know, keep. Keep focused, to keep on the sort of track. And you're gonna do great, Dan. You are doing great. I think this is a good place to end it if you. Unless there's something else you really want to say. But it's been a wonderful conversation, and I wish you all the best, and I'll come see you one of these days pretty soon. [01:04:28] Dan Cleland: Yeah. Dennis, thank you so much. I really appreciate you inviting me on, and it's always great to see your face and have a good chat with you. We didn't, we didn't go down the rabbit hole on global issues this time, but maybe we'll save that for a podcast in the future. [01:04:42] Dennis McKenna: Maybe next time. Just been catch up with you and learn what you're doing. I wish you and all your colleagues success in this business. You know, you've managed to make a business, but keep your moral, you know, your moral focus and not exploit people and not go. And there's so many opportunities to go weird one way or another. You appear to have avoided that so well, if he ever finds your way up to British Columbia, if that's how. [01:05:19] Dan Cleland: I'm perceived, I'm happy to be perceived that way. [01:05:21] Dennis McKenna: So, no, I think it's. I think it's not just a perception. I think it's the truth. It is how you are. And I respect you and love you, Dan. [01:05:34] Dan Cleland: Well, I respect and love you, too, Dennis. And again, thank you very much. And we got to get you down in Costa Rica sometime. [01:05:39] Dennis McKenna: One of these days. I think it's in the cards. I'm looking forward to it. We'll make it happen. [01:05:48] Dan Cleland: Yeah, sounds good. [01:05:50] Dennis McKenna: All right. All the best. [01:05:52] Dan Cleland: Thank you. [Outro] Join our mission to harmonize with the natural world, support the McKenna Academy by donating today. Thank you for listening to Brainforest Café with Dennis McKenna. Find us online at McKenna.Academy.