Down the Rabbit Hole with Dennis Mckenna

[00:00:13] Speaker A: Welcome to Brainforest Cafe with Dennis McKenna. [00:00:21] Speaker B: For tonight's reading into an increasingly unsure future, I've asked an old friend of mine who's a science fiction writer to be on the show, Mike Kawitzky, also known as Schwann Cybershaman, who just happens to have been an old friend of Terrence back in the day of Usenet, said he'd give us a look under the hood of his latest project. Intriguingly, it's something he's been working on for the past few decades, even though he claims he didn't know it. Mike has an unusual skill set. Originally the CEO of a clothing manufacturing company manufacturing dresses for old ladies, he's ended up writing an eight part Afro futuristic tv series. Okay, I skipped 30 years. But then hanging out with Schwann Kawitzky couldn't do that to a person. Like when he drove me mad around the beezer where we talked about a book I had yet to write and a movie he had yet to mate. And that was 20 years ago. Before that, he had started South Africa's first online multiplayer community. Yes, he's still a keen gamer. Also likes astronomy. Not so strange for a Sci-Fi writer, I guess. He's filmed a new he's filmed a few solar eclipses, one for the South African Astronomical Observatory in Dana. He's also made presentations at Albert Hoffman's 100th anniversary party in Brazil and of the Kimiasa psychedelic Plant Symposium with Graham Hancock at the University of Johannesburg. There's a book, I mean it, along with the history of cyberpunk, crossed with echoes of things he's done over the past 30 years. But because his house, along with his dog and his film archive, including stuff I'd sent to him for safekeeping, so called, all went up in smoke early one morning in December 20, in September 2019, he wanted to start talking about the Phoenix rising from the ashes. [00:03:04] Speaker C: But. [00:03:05] Speaker B: I discouraged him of that. But, yeah, Mike, this show is as woo woo as it gets. I'm warning you in advance, it's all your fault. Mike, I hope you enjoy the interview. [00:03:20] Speaker C: Thank you very much for that lovely introduction. And I'm down the rabbit hole with Dennis McKenna here to be something that I want to say that when you, you asked me, have you read my book that afternoon in 2004 with that cold stare on your face, and you said, you read the book, haven't you? You know, I'd only read parts of it at that stage look sent cold shivers down my spine that I can remember to this instant. So there you go. One for one. But it's a pleasure being on your show and having been asked on to come onto the McKenna broadcast. It's a rabbit hole I could not refute. [00:04:07] Speaker B: It's a pleasure to have you, Mike. It's been a long, we've been talking about doing this for a long time, and I think over almost 20 years. In fact, we met each other a frighteningly long time ago. I believe it was 2004 when I came to Spain initially, and then we went to Ibiza together. 20 years under the. That's a lot of water under the bridge then. [00:04:40] Speaker C: So say all of us, and how much can we take? This is the problem, or this is the suggestion. The universe gives what you can take. So they say, are we taking? Are we giving? I'm as clueless now as I was then, I'll confess. Maybe more so. [00:05:05] Speaker B: Yeah. The. The universe is. It was weird when we met in 2004, and now it's only gotten much stranger. Yeah. [00:05:17] Speaker C: So this evolutionary mind, the psychoactive evolutionary mind that you and I kind of participate together and that were like brothers before we were even brothers. Okay. We met in 2004. Skip ahead to 2012. Let me remind you, this was totality. At the point of no return. All people were headed for rapture, the sky, you know, computer oblivion, what have you. You contacted me when I was on top of the mountain that had literally lightning striking down upon us. And, you know, we were together on that moment, and we were all together on a moment of american history where we witnessed or saved the american constitution from being trashed back in when our dear current president took office. And I hope he will remain in office. [00:06:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:06:25] Speaker C: Now. [00:06:27] Speaker B: Here we are. [00:06:28] Speaker C: Since then, I have had to go through the ashes of the previous civilizations that I once inhabited, more or less due to my house burning down. So it was very much like a parabola of the phoenix, because 1 minute I had all that stuff, the next minute I had my underpants and my t shirt that I'd slept in. Literally, that was it. So I just feel very thankful for everything that I have friends like you that we reach across, you know, decades of understanding where we can insult each other with impunity, which I'm still waiting for, by the way. [00:07:17] Speaker B: Right. Well, we all have. Yeah, we all have a lot to be thankful for, that's for sure. I mean, you've had, not that long ago, you've had major disasters in your life. House burned down. And that's got to be a setback. And so how is. How is all that going? Are you. Are you back recovered from all that, or still dealing with it. I suppose it takes a while. [00:07:46] Speaker C: It's not something you ever get over, but it's something that you get through. And, you know, to quote Terence, everything comes as a blessing and a gift. And I have a new house. Here we are, and we are together and still got my mind. And I could actually say that science fiction saved my life, which was the topic of the conversation that I wanted to have with you, is science fiction, futurism, and that type of stuff. Where are we heading? Where we come from? Specifically, as the kind of psychedelic hotline that we've maintained over the last 30 or 40 years or longer. Forgive me if I rant, but I kind of did have some kind of a deep into greater understanding on the way to this conference. I just had this thought. I thought, life is not a bench dog. Life is a rabbit hole. [00:08:55] Speaker B: Yes, I suppose. I suppose it is. Yeah. Yeah. So you've. It's true. Science fiction is one of the best tools we have for kind of understanding the future. And you and I have been immersed in science fiction for probably far too longer than is healthy, you know, but it does give one a perspective on our contemporary situation and also the future. Most of the science fiction scenarios that talk about the near future are all dystopian. Seems like perhaps there's nothing to be optimistic about. What. What's your. What is your assessment of the current situation from the bridge of the starship at this. At this historical juncture? How are we doing? Are we doomed or are we going to overcome our issues starship mode for this? [00:10:00] Speaker C: Well, doomed? Well, there's a lot of people I could quote. There's Ralph Abraham, there's Rupert Chaldrake. There's various other peoples who've got various levels of doomingness. Okay? There's Elon Musk. There's. I don't live in that type of scenario. Where do you miss anything other than fantasy due to the fact that the, how shall I say, the holocaust that we're living through right now? I don't mean it likely we will detach from it in our little bubbles of the civilization that we call it that. Switch off the lights and watch walking dead, if you can, or the purge, for that matter. There's all very good american science fiction that shows us what happens when, you know, you switch off the lights. But that is not a subject that I'm dealing with directly. I'm dealing more with the commonality of humankind coming from the cradle of what we think is humankind here in Africa. So for me, science fiction, it's a way of life. Now, I literally saved my salad because after the house burned down, et cetera, et cetera, the only things I could think about were the books that I wrote. My dog, bless him, and Jack Vaughn's enemy banks, Robert Heinlein, boing, boing. I went to every second hand shop you could think of and I found every one of these books. So science fiction, it's a way of life, transcends culture, religion, belief. It illuminates the past and the future in a quantum equation. Or then and now, it's like loops we haven't thought of or thought yet. So it's a unique kind of situation. I find myself in being in one of these kind of loops where I actually were completely taken out. But there was like a big bang. You know, there was one item that was lit and it expanded and expanded and expanded became Zaleksne, which is a book that Terence, actually, two or three of my books went up in Terence's library. You know, Terence was a great believer in my story, but his agent at the time said my stuff was too weird for them. [00:12:46] Speaker B: It must be pretty weird if it was too weird for them now. [00:12:52] Speaker C: So. Yeah, so the book burned up, etcetera, etcetera. The house. The book burned up. The house burned down. But there was a hard drive. For those of you cyberpunks watching this program, yes, I came from an on point and shoot error. So the fat table went, which means file allocation table. So all the files were still on the drive. Not 1 tb out of 20, besides all my alcohol. But in this terabyte was this book that Terrence and I had tried to sell. And subsequently because of COVID a friend of mine phoned me and said, I need heritage. And what heritage have you got? I said, I've only got this book about the San and basically UFO. And he said, I'll take it. So kudos to you, Mark. And I still believe in the project three years later. We've been to Cannes. We. We've showed it to all the top people everybody loved. Now it's just a matter of when, how and who. So the white lady became Velexnia. It's not really a black or white thing. It's a story of a rock painting which symbolized the past, the present and the future. So basically we've taken the story of commonality. Now, look, we'll sat. I've got a 1 minute. I've got a 1 minute movie here. I'd like to screen, which we can cut if they don't want to edit it, and it's fine. So I'll just repeat that, and I'll let the movie run, see if you get sound on it, and I'll come back afterwards. 1 minute. Okay. [00:14:50] Speaker B: Okay. [00:14:52] Speaker C: This is to explain the movie you're about to see. Explains my commitment to the commonality by looking backwards at our ancestors geologically. The sand. [00:15:10] Speaker D: For millennia, the sand people have roamed the plains of southern Africa, the first humans to eke out an existence on this planet. So in tune with nature, almost in touch with the divine, they took the meager offerings of the desert and thrived. Some migrated north, and from there went west and east as a common ancestor. The sand are our past and also our future. [00:15:56] Speaker C: Well, that gives you some kind of a clue as to where we're coming from, as if the future doesn't exist for those guys. Well, we've all had it. And I can tell you the sand are dying out. They only live in a very small part of Africa now. [00:16:19] Speaker B: Yes, they're dying out, and their culture is better than, like, so many indigenous cultures. They're under a lot of stress, but at the same time, they're also probably better equipped than those of us in so called civilization to survive the collapse of civilization. [00:16:46] Speaker C: And there won't be any volpre in the apocalypse. And so those of you who've seen fallout recently on, I think. Is it Netflix? I'm not sure. Could be Amazon, but Fallout was a very popular post apocalyptic game. Yeah. As you know, I'm a gamer. But 2004 and then again 2008 and then again in 2016, now they've turned it into a kind of satirical apocalypse, if you know what I mean, and, well, you won't know what I mean until you've seen it. I don't know why I should be giving this fallout thing, except that everything is paradigmatic, is what I wanted to say at some stage in the conversation. This seems to be a good time to say it. Everything is paradigmatic. This I got from your brother. [00:17:46] Speaker B: Everything is part of the what? [00:17:50] Speaker C: Everything is paradigmatic. I got this from your brother directly. He was of one to sage around when he saw a princess. He said, she reminds me of the queen of Sheba, and this one reminds me of something else. Right. So it's an affectation, but. [00:18:09] Speaker B: Right? Right. [00:18:12] Speaker C: I watched Terrence for how many hours making that movie? If, you know, if he wasn't part of me by now, I would be inhuman. I probably am inhuman. This the tech? [00:18:24] Speaker B: Yes. Very interesting. Uh, what? Tell me about what your new movie project is. I've looked at the. At the overview. Are you trying to get this produced? What's the status of that when it's been to Canada? [00:18:45] Speaker C: Passed its first test through the doors of the gatekeepers. And we have several interested parties which are not lived to say who they are. But you can see our off world productions. We not taking responsibility for anything. This is all cosmic that's being produced from out there, and our investors on angels are angels. But the project has been very successful. As I say, we have ten people waiting to see how we take it to the next level, which I've just finished, which I finished, actually, last week. And now, basically, we will send it out and see who comes to the table or who wants to play. So Zanexnia is a pretty nice commonality. It's a yugioh, totality symbol for the coming together of humanity under one banner. There you have the sand. If you think about the great northern migration in terms of the archaeological record of humanity, then we see that we can fight over where were the original people, who were the original people. But a lot of evidence does go to, say, the greater rift or south of there. And there has been archaeological evidence of very, very significant features to encourage on the coast and other places. So I would venture to say scientifically or maybe could be argued with. But from the point of the project, we feel. We feel that the San are common ancestors to every single person on this planet. So with that in mind, we've made the moody. With the view of every single person on this planet being uplifted by it in material, on a middle scale consciousness, and then spiritually as well. So it's on a number of different levels. And the Disney Bang bang special effects, although there's plenty of underground caverns and, you know, lights, tunnels, and various other aspects of science fiction that you would expect. But the plot isn't totally original, inasmuch as that it's based on an old San legend. Thus spoke the legend. So it's a science fiction story that's basically supposed to take the sand into the future, where they become not only, you know, respected, but utterly necessary to the survival of humanity. So, you know, if we can't respect ourselves, our ancestors, and I'm not saying this is ancestor worship as such, but in Africa generally, it is, you know, it is a nod to spirits, and I would go for it. [00:22:25] Speaker B: That's a great idea, a great plot line, what I've seen of the graphics and so on. Certainly very engaging. So I hope you can get this done. [00:22:38] Speaker C: Well, it'll be good for everybody's head. We have got a couple of images which I'll just flash on the bottom over. Here we go. [00:22:51] Speaker B: Oh. [00:22:55] Speaker C: It. [00:23:00] Speaker B: That'S great. [00:23:06] Speaker C: And so it goes through various dimensions. We go. And so the movie goes through various dimensions of consciousness, of materiality, of conscience. You were talking about how science fiction sees the future. I had a hell of a job with seeing 60 years into the future, I might add. [00:23:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I think this is more than 60 years. So is this a collective effort, Mike, or is this out of your fevered brain? [00:23:45] Speaker C: No, no, it's a collective effort. I have very big investors who've been invested a packet. You heard me thank them earlier. I wasn't just joking. We have people who invested a package who've sent other people to Cannes, to the cannesful festival. I mean, it was, I think, $2,500 a ticket just to get into the temple there. And there were two of us that went, I mean, I turned down a ticket. I said, I'm unqualified, I'm unworthy, I'm only written or part of it. And I'd rather someone who goes, who knows the film business and who is like, that's my son in law Grant, who's like the top commercial director in South Africa right now. So he went with our other film guru, Chris Rowland, who's actually someone I interviewed in cognition Factor back in 2006, and he became. He went down the. I dragged them all down the rabbit hole. You understand exactly what I mean, right? [00:24:56] Speaker B: The cognition factor is a documentary you made 2006, is that right? After our. What's happened with that? [00:25:11] Speaker C: I'm re releasing it since the dvd business, since Amazon doesn't replicate dvd's, I just kind of forgot it for a while. Then when the house burned down, I got those files back. I found a high definition copy of it, and there's never been a high definition copy of it, so I'm going to re release it on page Black. But that's, you know what it's like. I just haven't got around to it yet because you and me, we were never guided by finance. Now worry. [00:25:44] Speaker B: Very interesting. Well, what do you. What has got your attention these days other than making this movie? What. What else gets your. Gets your attention, gets your time? [00:26:01] Speaker C: Do you remember hobo homo cyberneticus? And homo cyberneticus was your term for someone that Elon Musk's girlfriend, Rimes, is talking about us becoming, evolving into this global, connected up mind that I was doing back in the Terrence McKenna days. Right, the cyber shamanism thing. She gorgeous and she sparkles like a doll, and she does it much better than me, but I could immediately recognize exactly the same take. Right. So it's now mainstream, if you get it. If Musk's girlfriend is talking about, we're all going to be connected up and which we're all evolving to a kind of cyberpunk future. Well, actually, it's a cyberpunk dystopia at the moment for a lot of the world, as we both know. So I don't know what to make of 60 years because the script, the story that I was writing, is 60 years in the future, 62 years. So it took up quite a lot of thinking, how is the future going to look? Or how do I want the future to look? How do I expect the future to look in 60 years? [00:27:30] Speaker B: It's very hard to say. [00:27:33] Speaker C: South Africa, and I live in South Africa. That in mind, with all the carnations and mud and gold that come with that, I'm still happy to be down south and being able to live here. I feel very at home here in Africa. [00:27:59] Speaker B: But you think that South Africa is a good place to look forward for the next decade or a couple decades, however long we have. [00:28:14] Speaker C: I'm not saying South Africa is the perfect place for living out the next 60 years. Certainly going to be hell of a tough. You know, we've been hit by electrical shortages. I have a backup stuff here. If it all goes off. Right now, I'm still talking to you, so. But, you know, we're in the. I'm on. I'm kind of. So I wouldn't notice if it went off. You can mag. So I'm off the grid, but most people aren't, or a lot of people are, and it's a hell of a problem here. And you can see the lack of electricity affect the whole. You get the idea of that power, you know, you shut the grid down and it all goes to hell. Now, when you're thinking about stuff like electromagnetic pulse, sunspots, solar storms, stuff like that, as a science fiction writer, it becomes quite scary because these are all real cosmic events and there's. There has actually, there was a solar storm a couple of days ago. I keep an eye on stuff like that. Um, but onto a more spiritual level, I mean, what do you think about Rupert Sheldrake's morphogenetic, or morphogenesis field theory, say, 20 years later? Now, we all had a chance to think about it and see how. How that works. Out. How do you feel about Rupert's, about. [00:29:53] Speaker B: His theory of morphogenetic fields? I think it's. I think it's very. I think it's an interesting theory. I think it's a good framework for conceptualizing. I don't think the factual basis of it is that strong. You know, I mean, so it remains more of a theoretical construct, but it's a fascinating idea, and maybe it does give some insight into how things get to be the way they do and why things are basically so weird now we're getting the leakage from some other continuum into. Into ours that gummied up the works. In some ways, it seems like it's. [00:30:53] Speaker C: Just going to get weirder. Weirder and people are going to be doing this and people are going to. People going, wow, whatever it is. And here we are. [00:31:00] Speaker B: So it certainly delivered on that level. But how much weirder could it get before the system just basically blows up, know, or collapses under the weight of its own improbability? In some ways, you know, it's like. [00:31:20] Speaker C: We'Re a sopwith camel in a wind tunnel that's doing Makhtui and we're about to be torn asunder by the forces being applied to us because we're not designed for high speed trouble yet. So this was always the hope of some kind of oneness. Telepathy, Ayahuasca Brotherhood, the even dope brotherhood. Where has it come to that? From where we were, we've seen an increase in economic, you know, in economic interest and my country, a removal of laws that you would have been put in jail for. So, yes, but there's been also a kind of negative influence on the psyche by the same drugs that have had positive influence on the psyche to some people, have had negative influence on others. Look at that shaman, a guy from the resurrection, not the resurrection from the revolution. He was standing in the Oval Office with the horns on. And I mean, he was basically saying, yes, I used to take mushrooms all the time. So it's very worrying that it's a double edged sword. [00:32:50] Speaker B: It's interesting, it seems that we're, you know, I mean, we met in. In 2004, and of course, the big test for the time wave theory and all that, that theoretical construct was 2012, and it kind of failed spectacularly, its major test. And, you know, we didnt see a collapse of the spacetime continuum, or at least that's not necessarily what was postulated, but that there would be some kind of an abrupt shift, you know, ontologically, and that may be happening it appears that's happening, but it's a slower process. And this goes back to what Terence and I used to talk about, about the nature of novelty. You know, he would just. He was a proponent of the idea that novelty bursts into the continuum and explodes into the continuum. With big history and even planetary wide events that affect the future, those things happen. But I was a proponent of the. I advocated the idea that the real changes happen in the background. You don't even know they're going on until you reach. Until they explode in one of these dramatic events. But the initial novel circumstances that let that happen, that all takes place very quietly. And that's where novelty. So novelty leaks into the continuum rather than bursts into the continuum. But at some point, you reach a point where you get this built up of novelty, and that's kind of what we're approaching now at seapside. [00:34:54] Speaker C: That's what I see it as, basically. I mean, how much can the system take before. How much can America take before they have a civil war? I mean, I look from here, and I just. If I was either a Republican or a war Democrat, which are non american, so it's easy to say. I would never say or do the things that I would. I believe I would be capable of not beating my neighbor to death or using a shotgun. But, you know, looking at some of the people, it's just, like, very difficult not to see the worst, you know, and. And see it coming from other places in other countries, my own included, where materialism and greed and, you know, personal, whatever it is, has taken a place of national leadership. [00:35:59] Speaker B: Yes. [00:36:00] Speaker C: I'm not pointing a finger at anyone. I'm saying that there. In my opinion, there is not a single country in the world at this moment, as I'm talking, that adequately represent. That is adequately represents the people of its country. What did I say? There's not a one country in the world. There's not one government in the world that adequately represents its people's life. Otherwise, what would we be doing? America wouldn't be building trillions donna ships to sable when Russia wouldn't be building proton, mopedo, phosphor. This is all as we. As we knew, you know, and now we've got Ukraine and NATO and, you know, the gnomes in Europe and the gnomes in various other, you know, middle kind of places that. Not sure if they're on the left, along the right. It's like the cold war. You. We didn't know that the SS was running the military intelligence on both sides of the fence in keeping it going so they could keep their jobs. Or that's what I believe, at any rate. But my level of. My level of conspiracy, how much conspiracy I will swallow, is severely stunted by the fact that I used to. I used to be a UFO investigator back in the days of Schwann intelligence magazine. I was sent on a few cases and I mostly ended up debunking them and then following around people who said, I've got evidence, until they didn't show the evidence after five years. And so it went. Now, I keep an open mind on UFO's and, you know, extra dimensional, extraterrestrial objects as required. But I find it very hard to get pulled back into that dark alley, off to having been around the block. [00:38:02] Speaker B: Right, so you're more of a skeptic than you were before, or you before. You just don't care anymore. [00:38:18] Speaker C: We're both of the same age. So if I say before, let's say when I was making dresses for old ladies when I was in my twenties and thirties, I was a completely different person to the person who had wrote the book, who is now a completely different person to the person, but very similar to the person at unit, because we have a continuum there. So from when I left Thomas on this path into who knows where, and we still don't. I don't know where I'm going still. I changed at that point, and I've continued changing. And you were talking about novelty. And I once wrote one of the first things I wrote. As I said, it never gets weird enough for me. And boy, that was a big mistake. [00:39:12] Speaker B: Because it got weird enough for you and much too weird for most of the rest of us. I mean, if it's pushing your tolerance for weirdness, you can just imagine how weird it must be, because you have pretty wide parameters. [00:39:32] Speaker C: I have. Your brother had wider parameters than I do then I do. Maybe because maybe he had wider parameters. [00:39:42] Speaker B: I don't know if he actually bought into it, but I think at a certain point even he began to question, you know, some of these ideas. [00:39:52] Speaker C: And I have it on tape as usual. The ones that were all on the neck, the stuff that didn't burn down. So fortunately, there is a lot of stuff out there. Yeah, but as far as where we are right now with conspiracy theory, it's not really about UFO's anymore, is it? It's more about like, what was on so and so's laptop. And you said that to what? Or. And a whole lot of words, as you say, really weird social stuff and not a lot of science. I mean, I've got friends who are in science who denied climate change with a doctorate, shall we know? But a very, very good friend of mine. So now everything has become like, oh, it's this. Sure, we all knew it was for big business. We all knew the military industrial complex around the world. We knew this 30 years ago. So, you know, get on with it. Every missile they fire is another bottle of champagne for somebody who, whichever side fires it to, whether it's fire. That. So we can all agree that, you know, a whole lot of people chanting death to the enemy is not a good sight, no matter who the enemy is or no matter who's doing the chanting. Right? These are dire times, and making this movie through it has kind of helped me in a lot of ways to. Yeah, step aside because things seem to be going to getting to a climax at some stage. Maybe the american election will do it. Maybe Ukraine losing the war will do it. Maybe Israel will do something. Maybe the Palestinians will do something. Matt. Iran will do something. Everybody's got a choice. There's North Korea. They're a player. So we have a lot of x factors running right now. Whether we actually advance to the next level of civilization or we're going to wipe each other, we're going to wipe ourselves out. So, for a science fiction writer, I'm very much in the, you know, wait and see stage. You know, we're locked, we're loaded, we're in for take all. You know, there are a lot of things that could shake loose here before we get to that point. So hopefully cautious, and especially when it comes to things like AI, you know, where the one thing I really liked, and stop me from ranting if you want, at any stage, please. Or as Terrence used to say, save me from this rant. What I wanted to say, okay, I was talking about AI, right? And I was saying, you know, everyone's innocent about AI and this and that, and it's almost. The panic of AI itself is a selling point in this whole thing. You know, you've got, like, the funniest story of Elon, you know, with Grock. You know, Grock, you know, we all know. We've all read stranger in a strange land when we read Heinlein before, you know, he was around. So, you know, to see a company suddenly used called Grok kind of freaked me out. Like, oh, there's now a company called Brock. I mean, Grok was the holy word. You don't have a company called psychedelic, or, do you? So here we are. March 4, humanity to greet a new dawn. Do you remember that one? [00:43:53] Speaker B: A new dawn. [00:43:55] Speaker C: That was what you said. March 4, humanity to greet a new dawn. [00:44:01] Speaker B: Yes. [00:44:02] Speaker C: It's the day we shall sleep no more. I quote you. [00:44:07] Speaker B: It was a long time ago, Mike. Yeah. Yes, I do remember it. I mean. [00:44:15] Speaker C: Neurons going there. I'm getting you going. I see a bit of. A bit of energy there. Yeah. Well, I was going to ask you how you were sleeping and sitting. You said we weren't going to sleep some more. No more. The older you get, the more difficult it gets to sleep. [00:44:33] Speaker B: Times have changed, you know. I mean, I made, you know, back in those days, we had a lot of more optimism that there was some going to be some ontological, transformational change. I think that part was true. But is it going to be for the better? That's the question so far. Not looking too, too hopeful, you know. [00:45:04] Speaker C: Is strap in and enjoy the ride at the stage and put as much positive energy as you can into the people around you. You know, I couldn't offer any better advice. You know, certainly politics is dead. Equivalence is dead. We just hope that, you know, there's. There's something more than apathy out there. Spirit needs to rise. [00:45:30] Speaker B: Yeah, we have to hold that. [00:45:31] Speaker C: I mean, rage. Rage doesn't need to rise. Rage is right there. We're all raging. Okay. It's a cosmic, cosmic theme, I suppose, rage versus peace. Or somewhere in the middle there is a zone where you cannot be bored. [00:45:53] Speaker B: Well, very interesting, as always. [00:45:57] Speaker C: You want to sign me off? I'm ready to get the record and drop back into my dimension. Happen you're waiting for me here in my studio. It's been an absolute pleasure being on the cafe, and thank you very much for bringing me down the rabbit hole with you into, well, our future. I'll post. [00:46:21] Speaker B: Thanks, Mike. I enjoyed. I've enjoyed talking to you and reflecting on the past and the future. I hope both of us are around for another decade or so so that we could. So that we could get some answers as to what the fuck all this is about. Because right now, I know it seems like the older I get, the less I know, you know, the less I am sure about, I guess. And I suppose you're in the same situation. So. [00:46:59] Speaker C: The Lords of Light have allowed this to take place. I mean, the silicone central has approached, so we must be good to go another round. So let's maybe take another look at things towards the hysteria of the american election, or maybe during it, to spice things up a bit. And see what it looks like. If you want an outside view, I'll always give you one. Without fear. Friends forever. Good night. [00:47:31] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks, Mike. We'll. We'll catch you downstream. [00:47:40] Speaker A: Join our mission to harmonize with the natural world. Support the Makena Academy by donating today. Thank you for listening to brain Forest Cafe with Dennis McKenna. Find us online at McKenna Academy.