Episode Transcript
[Intro] Welcome to Brainforest Café with Dennis McKenna.
[00:00:21] Dennis McKenna: Laurel Anne Sugden is a PhD candidate in interdisciplinary studies at the University of British Columbia. She grew up in rural Montana where she developed deep connections with the flora and fauna of the Rocky Mountains and went on to earn a Bachelor of Science degree in molecular biology. Her PhD research centers on the visionary San Pedro cactus and its cultural and ecological roles in the Andes.
Laurel conducted a broad survey of the endemic habitats of Huachuma which revealed the decline of wild Huachuma in Peru.
Her partner and colleague Josip Orlovac del Río is a maestro Huachumero from coastal Peru with over 33 years of experience growing, cooking, drinking and sharing Huachuma. He received his connection to the plant through his andean grandfather and from a young age studied traditional healing in a lineage of curanderos from the Río Santa. He has been planting San Pedro for 30 years and collectively his gardens are home to over 5000 individual cacti. Josip is the creator of a Peruvian cultural phenomenon, Mulu, which I guess he will tell us about. Together with an alliance of traditional curanderos and indigenous leaders, Josip and Laurel co-founded the Huachuma Collective a nonprofit association in Peru which works with andean communities toward the biocultural sustainability of the San Pedro cactus. It gives me great pleasure to welcome Laurel and Josip to the Brainforest Café.
[00:02:14] Laurel Sugden: Hello, Dennis. Thank you so much for having us. We're really happy to be here and happy to continue the conversation we've been having for a few years.
[00:02:22] Dennis McKenna: Hi Dennis, great to see you again.
[00:02:25] Dennis McKenna: Yes. Josip, you're out of your element. It must be very hot for you since you're from the Andes.
[00:02:33] Josip Orlovac del Río: Yeah, I was the last month traveling from the north coast of Peru till Andes in Piura, Chiclayo. So the heat is quite the same, we have like high temperatures in some places in the deserts of north Peru. So, yeah, I'm doing well.
[00:02:52] Dennis McKenna: Right. Well, It's great that you're working together. And I guess, full disclosure, I should mention that Laurel is a PhD. That Laurel's PhD supervisor at UBC is Wade Davis, who we all know and love. And I'm on her committee.
And, you know, I've really watched you, Laurel, grow in your profession and you're doing some amazing things. And the section of the thesis that I've read so far is incredible. You have a story to tell together. You have a story to tell and it's going to be an amazing publication when it comes out. So just keep on doing what you're doing.
[00:03:41] Laurel Sugden: Thank you, Dennis.
[00:03:42] Dennis McKenna: Tell us about the Huachuma collective a little bit.
[00:03:48] Josip Orlovac del Río: Huachuma Collective comes as a need to unify voices and point of view, perspectives, on what's happening around the culture of Curanderismo in north Peru, 4 years ago. 4 years ago, we reached a point, personally in my practice as a curandero, as a healer, and in my path with San Pedro Cactus, with Huachuma and the confluence, on my role as an assistant on the research of Laurel conducted in Peru in the last years, confirm myself what I started to see 20, 25 years ago on the decline of the wild populations of the starts of San Pedro all around Peru, from north to south. But going on this more technical survey that Laurel conducts since 2018 or so, was, for me, shocking. The first two years was like, what happened here?
So, yeah, Colectivo Huachuma is an answer, a response on what's happening on the wild habitat of Huachuma and the overexploited of the plants.
[00:05:13] Dennis McKenna: So Huachuma is probably one of the oldest sacred medicines in Peru. Archaeologically speaking, it goes back 8,000 to 10,000 years. So that makes it even older than ayahuasca. Well, ayahuasca is probably not that old. I mean, there's no good handle on that. Maybe 1000 BC, not too much later than that. But Huachuma, based on the archaeological record, has been around for a long time, and so for that reason alone, it's even more important to try to preserve it. I understand there are many varieties and you've collected many of them. This is part of Laurel's project, and so could you speak a little bit to the biodiversity of Huachuma?
I think people in the west think, well, huachuma, it's San Pedro, it's this species or that species, but it's much more complicated than that. Right. There are many varieties, and it's quite a morphologically diverse genus, depending on its ecology and so forth.
[00:06:39] Laurel Sugden: Yes, definitely, you're right that the earliest traces of what huachuma founds are about 10,600 years old. And the only psychoactive plant material on earth that's been found that's older than that is fermented barley from beer on the other side of the world. So it's a very, very old plant in its relationship with humans.
And its diversity really spans from all of north Peru, really. From about the Paracas area, north through the andes, through Ecuador.
It used to grow wild in Chile. It appears to be endemically extinct now. There's also relatives of San Pedro in Argentina.
And so it's really quite a wide endemic range, and its habitat is fairly fragmented between those ranges. And so there's been a lot of parallel evolution of different species of cacti. Of course, Bolivia, I forgot to mention Bolivia, La Paz.
There's another species of Huachuma that grows there.
And so during all of this cultural evolution of thousands of years and evolution of the plant, there are many, many diverse expressions, both of the culture, but also of the plants that have shown up. And really, even in a single valley in Peru, local people talk about 2,3,4,5,6,7 different varieties of Huachuma that grow just within that area. And so, botanically, there's a lot of hybridization that can happen between Huachuma and other Huachuma, between Huachuma and other cacti.
But it really creates this tapestry of very unique varieties, valley to valley, drainage to drainage, and that seems to be very, very well preserved, and that each of these varieties has properties that make them more useful for certain kinds of cultural uses or magic, and that really bring their own flavor to each cultural interaction.
[00:09:04] Dennis McKenna: Right. So is there a single epicenter of its origin or more than one point in the Andes where it's thought to have originated the species that have become culturally important? Or is there a single place where it radiated from? Is that understood, or what's the thinking on that?
[00:09:28] Laurel Sugden: Yeah, it's really interesting. The biological origin of all cacti is in the central Andes, in fact. And there have been some studies done that indicate it might have been in Morgan, Bolivia, that the first ancestor of San Pedro came from.
And then there are Peruvian scientists saying the opposite. So it's really, it's not very possible to know because all of these cultural expressions are so embedded. But culturally, the oldest area where Huachuma is found is in the Chavín area in the central andes, near the cordillera blanca.
And culturally, the strongest expression, huachuma that existed in the past and exists now also is in north Peru.
So basically, from Chavín, Ancash, Trujillo, all the way up to Huancabamba and Giuda and north Peru. So that's kind of the epicenter today, both of the prevalence of Huachuma in the wild and the practices of healing that go with them.
[00:10:37] Dennis McKenna: And so are there. Are there…
Cultural practices are obviously influenced in some way by the varietal types. Maybe there are different cultural medicinal uses for different varieties. And this is recognized and assuming also probably pharmacological differences, which, as far as Huachuma is concerned, it's kind of a black box right now has not been extensively studied, the phytochemistry. And on one hand, one could say, well, I hope that never happens, you know, but on the other hand, maybe it would, maybe it would. I mean, my bias is toward chemistry, so I'm always curious about that. But how would you say that the.
I mean, can you give some examples of, you know, ritual or medicinal practices associated with different. Different varietals?
[00:11:40] Josip Orlovac del Río: Yeah.
Two years ago, we present some research in ESPD 55, and then we proved how different varieties coming from different areas, valleys or regions of Peru are historically used for different healing practices.
For example, some cactus that we found in the Cajamarca that we call Giganton are more used for floral bads and for the inflammation of organs, but also for induced to the purge on simple stuff like bad habits, on alimentation.
[00:12:28] Laurel Sugden: And induced vomiting for nutrition reasons. Yeah.
[00:12:32] Josip Orlovac del Río: And some other plants that are famous that grow in the areas of Piura or la Valleque, are more related to the mesadas, like the mestizo and syncretic modern practice of curanderismo in north Peru that are recognized as a cultural heritage from the Ministry of Culture in Peru in the last two years, then the plant is more visionary and help the maestro, the curandero, to receive the message from the plant spirit on what kind of sickness the patient has. If it's something that comes from nature or is something that comes from human behavior, or sometimes if some kind of magic involves the ancient speeds of the lands and the speed of nature. So the same in some other parts of Peru, are other kind of varieties, like in huaraz, ancash or chavín areas are more today cultural used it as a way to connect with the ancestral heritage of the antique culture that developing also the coast and the andes, there in chavín. No, it's more like a way to connect with ancestors more than the healing itself.
So like this, we can speak a lot of many, many different examples on how the cultural relation that belongs with the plant, together with the prey to the apus, know the importance of the water that runs in the area and the cultural use itself on the tradition. It helps, like some chant, some kind of music or dance that are related or whole to awake invocation, the spirit of the plant to come to supporting a medicinal process.
[00:14:33] Laurel Sugden: Yeah. And so there are some varieties in north Peru, for example, that grow very close to ancestral temples or grow very close to where a certain virgin Mary is venerated, or to where a certain type of water spirit, like a gentiles or encantos, are venerated. And it's those specific varieties of huachuma that need to be worked with in ceremony in order to channel the power of those spirits that come from those specific places. And so that's when we find the importance of having, you know, of curanderos having access to those plants that they've always worked with, because it is their channel to the Virgin Mary, or their channel to the Encanto waterfall spirit, or to the spirit of the mountain, or the water bring.
[00:15:33] Dennis McKenna: So each of these varieties has obviously, I guess it would be obvious to people that are immersed in the Huachuma culture, as you are.
Every variety is linked to a specific ecology, to specific spirits, the apus, all of that. And if those varieties and many are threatened, right, like, if those varieties are driven to extinction, then you're not simply driving a plant to extinction, which is bad enough. You're extinguishing a worldview, or a segment of a worldview, which.
That is truly a tragedy. It's all a tragedy. So much must be done, I think, that people don't understand.
There's a lot of concern, for example, about peyote as a threatened species. People don't realize that Huachuma is similarly threatened in different ways.
And can you speak to that? What can be done to make sure these varietals thrive and remain accessible for traditional Curanderismo? And I guess the question is, you know, how global culture is. It takes over everything. It commercializes everything. Look what happened to Ayahuasca.
The same thing appears to be happening to Huachuma. And sadly, these things happen.
But they come from people that are outside the culture, and they often have good intentions. They recognize that Huachuma is a healing plant. It's a sacred plant, and it should be treasured. It's a medicine.
They want access to it. But there's often an unconsciousness about the threat that the exploitation of these plants has to the cultural integrity and to the species themselves.
Where's the balance? How can you protect the plant and yet make their virtues available to the rest of the world? Or is that even desirable? I mean, it's a tricky question.
[00:18:09] Laurel Sugden: Yeah, a lot of really good questions, and I think a lot of PhD students are in a similar situation. I did a five year research study to figure out what local people already know and have already been saying, which is that Huachuma is in decline. We did windshield and walking surveys all over the endemic habitat of Huachuma in Peru and in southern Ecuador. And really more than just cultivated plants. We were looking for how many of these plants are really endemic and wild and growing here in a natural way. And what we found is that probably around three quarters of the endemic habitat of Huachuma is already severely depleted. And the reasons for that are really wide and varied. And the biggest one is human overexploitation.
Cattle grazing, and kind of clearing land for agriculture is another big one.
Mining infrastructure is another big one. And just general development, building up roads, destruction of habitat for the growing population.
And what we found is that this decline has been happening for a long time, probably at least 40 years, 40 to 50 years in north Peru, where these plants have been used ceremonially.
But it hasn't been happening very fast.
It's been little bit by little bit declining. And in other areas where there's no cultural use left, there has been a lot of preservation of some of the habitats at wild Huachuma. And so now, today, the major issue is over harvesting for the market of spiritual tourism in Cusco, and over harvesting for illegal exportation.
These plants that can be 100, 200, 300 years old, are cut down and turned into a dried powder or dried chips that people buy in Cusco, take home in their backpacks, or are served in Cusco, far from the native habitat of the plant. And the rate of destruction that's been happening in about the last ten years, the government in Peru has been aware of this for about ten years, eleven years, and the rate of destruction has just increased massively. And so, yes, about peyote and the difference between Huachuma and peyote, and one great thing about Huachuma and its botany is that it. It is a really wonderful plant to cultivate. It does really well in cultivated settings. It does well in gardens all over the coast of north Peru.
Huachuma grows, and it grows in people's front gardens and their back gardens. And generally they're all really similar, spineless echinopsis patchanoi variety, and not necessarily the wild spiny varieties from the mountains, but there is a path forward, definitely, for Huachuma with cultivation. And so the major issue right now is that is sort of the appropriation of both the wild stocks of Huachuma by the Cusco market and the international export market and of the cultural practices that go with them. You know, the communities in the north are not receiving anything for their plants. They're not receiving any recognition of their mastery working with these plants. They're not even given the courtesy of being seen by the world as the guardians of these plants. People go to Cusco, take the plants in a powder form coming from a poached wild stock. That's being very rapidly depleted and then they go away thinking that.
[00:22:22] Dennis McKenna: Yeah, it's a very complex issue. So clearly one of the solutions. Thankfully, Huachuma grows very well and people are growing it, so clearly grow more Huachuma, right. Grow it every place you can, in every habitat you can. That's part of it. But that's far from the, from the, you know, that's only a tiny part of the solution. What I am taking away from what you're saying is that the destruction of habitats through mining, farming, so-called development, which is not development of the local people, usually, its development for corporations, is impacting populations. But the main impact right now is the commercialization for export, for tourist trade. That is the most harmful thing.
[00:23:21] Josip Orlovac del Río: Yes, absolutely.
I used to live long time in the Cusco sacred Valley area, and I witnessed how fast, how extensive was the wave of people, searchers for spiritualism and to know more about Peruvian culture and our mother plants. And yeah, it's amazing how out of context is in the amount of centers of ayahuasca in Cusco, is maybe the same as in the jungle. Ayahuasca don't grow in Cusco. There we have progress and balance, but with huachuma it is the same. San Pedro doesn't grow at all in the Cusco area. And this all coming from the last remains of the rootstocks of white San Pedro, from Lima region and Ancash region.
So with this easy way to find ready to serve huachuma powder in the markets in Cusco comes also this like questionable use of the plant outside of the cultural context, that a lack of all the ritual, spiritual way to be in contact with the plants. So this is why some of the first actions we do is first to communicate, to educate, to talk with people around the endemic habitat of the plant. And we find that everybody, everybody at Curandero agrees that when they were young or kid, they saw and they found enough huachuma for his practices. And today is hard, so hard to find a good amount of plants that serve well to his practices. From Piura to Ancash, is the same what's happening. And it's more totally in agreement that we need to do something. So one first action we did was to collect seeds. It is not very quick to grow huachuma from seeds, but it's not impossible, just needed time and nourishment. So last year we created a seed bank of almost a million seeds that go from 42 different places in Lima and Ancash. And we successfully started to plant the first 10,000 in April and are thriving well in our new nursery that they say in Chaclacayo, the Andes, in Lima. And as this, we can say that more and more people are aware to start to plant huachuma in his own gardens, in his lands, and to promote that other people can take care of huachumas to start to have kind of below suffer too much on what's happening on the decline of the plants all around Peru.
[00:26:33] Laurel Sugden: Yeah. And so the idea of this nursery is that the seeds from these 42 locations were collected in collaboration with their communities of origin, and that in this nursery, they're going to be taken care of for the first about three to four years until they are a size that can be planted in gardens and doesn't need water and attention so often, all of those seeds will be returned to their communities of origin in the places where seeds came from. And so the idea is to really take the bulk of the huachuma supply in the future out of the hands of illegal companies and put it back in the hands of the people. And so how can these comunidades campesinas, these farming communities and indigenous communities in the Andes be the ones who have the bulk of huachuma growing in their gardens, along their fences and their fields, and that they keep economic control of the supply of huachuma as well as a spiritual, you know, so I wonder.
[00:27:48] Dennis McKenna: So huachuma grows well from seeds, right? I mean, in the right conditions, you can grow it from seed. I wonder if a solution to this, or, I mean, there's all these problems have maybe multiple solutions, but is one solution, would it, or could it be to work with communities in North America and Europe and so on, these retreat centers and that sort of thing, that are already established, export the seeds to those, form cooperatives or relationships with those centers and say, you know, we will supply the seeds under fair trade agreements. You grow this because the thing about huachuma, it grows everywhere. It's a popular ornamental plant in North America. And with respect to ayahuasca, my trope has been, don't go to South America for the medicine. Bring the medicine to North America under some kind of light regulation, work with indigenous communities to produce the medicine and then export it to the states. Don't encourage tourists to go to South America to take ayahuasca, because although individuals benefit from this, it has ultimately probably a detrimental impact on the communities. There are some immediate benefits, but long term, it disrupts the culture. You know what? I'm one of the guilty ones. I have organized ayahuasca retreats for many years. I've come to think that that's probably not a good thing to do or not a good thing to do very much.
And I wonder if the same considerations might apply to that.
People should not go to South America and make these powdered extracts and export them. But if you could somehow enlist some of these communities in the global north to do seed exchanges and production of huachuma in situ in North America, and then also form alliances with the curandero indigenous communities in South America to not only supply the seeds, which doesn't deplete what's in place in South America, but also bring that knowledge, bring that wisdom up to North America, help people learn how to properly use the Huachuma as a ritual medicine and as a medicine medicine.
I mean, am I just dreaming? Is that not a practical solution, or what do you think about that?
[00:30:57] Laurel Sugden: No, I think that there are a lot of important questions there.
A plant from seed, a huachuma plant from seed takes about 25 years to be large enough to be sustainably harvested for medicinal use. You could cut it when it's younger, but if you want the plant to live and to be happy and thriving, it's going to be about 25 years, at least. From seed to mature plant with cuttings, it's 7 to 10 years, sometimes 15 years, depending on the variety, from a cutting to a mature plant that's harvestable. And so there is a lag here that's happening where there are all of these retreat centers all of a sudden around Huachuma, as Huachuma becomes more popular.
And what are they going to do for those 15 to 25 years while these new seeds are growing? Right. So I think, to an extent, what you're talking about is already happening, and that there are a lot of seeds that have made their way to North America. And there are very many people, particularly in California and Florida and Arizona and in the more temperate areas of the south, that are already growing a lot of Huachuma seeds, thousands and thousands, and have mature Huachuma plants.
And that's definitely the direction that these retreat centers are going to have to go. As with cultivated plants, whether they're cultivating them or whether they're buying them from communities that are cultivating them.
[00:32:42] Dennis McKenna: Would it be practical to buy small plants instead of seeds from these communities and bring those up? Or is that. I mean, it's, you know, Americans and North, North European. We're an impatient lot, you know.
[00:32:59] Laurel Sugden: Yeah.
[00:32:59] Dennis McKenna: Years, time, you know, we can't wait twelve years for this.
[00:33:06] Laurel Sugden: Yeah, I think.
[00:33:07] Dennis McKenna: How do you speed it up? Or is there any way to speed it up? I mean, patience is a virtue that we don't have much of, and maybe it's one that we need to learn in the meantime, there are many, many people who could benefit from these medicines.
As you know, as a culture, we're a wounded culture, we are a traumatized culture by all kinds of. For all sorts of reasons. And these, there is such fascination with these medicines because of this, I think, spiritual longing that people have.
People would not be turning to these indigenous cultural, spiritual traditions if their own traditions were not hollowed out and had become meaningless.
And I don't want to get off too far in my anti-religion rant, but I could go pretty far in that direction. But there is this spiritual longing, and people do see these plants, like Huachuma, ayahuasca, mushrooms, those sorts of things, as connections to nature, as medicines for their spirit, which really need their spirit. I sometimes say these psychedelic medicines are medicines for the soul, but not just the individual soul, the collective soul, the cultural soul, ultimately, the soul of the planet.
And the argument can be made, or the statement can be made, that these plants are the cultural heritage of humanity.
Really, they are. They're co-evolutionary partners with humanity. But that said, historically, for thousands of years, indigenous communities have been the stewards of these plants. This genetics and this wisdom, how can you respect that? And yet at the same time, try to project that healing energy into on a global scale, on a wider scale, because we need these plants more than ever.
[00:35:43] Laurel Sugden: I think the answer to your question is exactly what you just said. It's cultivation. For somebody who sees no difference between mescaline and San Pedro plant or a peyote plant, they should work with synthetic mescaline. You know, if they're coming into that with, you know, mescaline is mescaline. Yeah, take mescaline, take something that's not alive.
[00:36:05] Dennis McKenna: Yeah.
[00:36:05] Laurel Sugden: And, you know, I think when you're talking about the spiritual connection and the connection with nature that comes from growing the plant, you know, it comes from starting seeds, it comes from starting cuttings, it comes from having the plant in your home, you know, in your south facing windows, it comes from planting it in your garden if it doesn't freeze where you live, you know, and the amount of spiritual connection that people both in Peru and outside of Peru receive from growing the plants is enormous. I mean, you see people who work with these plants a lot, and they start working with less and less and less quantity of the plants. People who have the plants in their gardens, you know, they're not taking more and more every time. They're taking less and less every time, because at some point, they walk over to their plant and they're connected.
And so I think cultivation, people having connection with the living plant, with the living, growing plant is enormous there. I think that the amount of connection that can be had with the growing plant means that less actual medicine is needed to be drunk.
So I will say that, and I'll also, you know, we, last year elaborated a collective declaration about the San Pedro sustainability crisis that was a collaboration between 60 traditional practitioners in north Peru who are faced with these issues and asking the same questions. And, you know, do we want our seats to go out? Do we want our cuttings to go out? Do we, you know, what do we want to happen with our medicine? And they came up with three things that they feel really strongly about, and I don't know if we can talk about timelines, but the first.
[00:38:12] Dennis McKenna: Please.
[00:38:13] Laurel Sugden: Yeah. So the first thing that these 60 practitioners from north Peru have said is that stop using led from San Pedro. Cultivate the plant. So find cultivated plants. Find cultivated sources.
Grow your own plants. Just start to cultivate the plant, because we need to phase out foreigners working with wild plants from Peru. So cultivate the plant. Absolutely.
The second thing that they have asked for is that they are recognized as the guardians of huachuma. You know, it seems like such a simple thing, but it's very important that their communities and their maestros are recognized as the originators of this relationship with the plant. That doesn't mean that it can't go to every part of the world. That doesn't mean that everywhere, in every part of the world, people can't be working with huachuma. It means that the roots are in Peru. It means that the roots are in north Peru and the heads of these plants are growing all around the world, but that the roots always stay back in Peru. And so they've asked people who work with these medicines to have recognition of them both just on a level of recognition and also on a level of giving back to their communities, giving back to the repopulation of San Pedro in Peru, getting back to their children, being able to study this financially.
The break in the lineage that's happening right now is so big.
You have 70 and 80 year olds working and then nobody under them in a lot of communities and a lot of cases, I would say, in most. And so they just want to be able to teach their children, they want to be able to teach their grandchildren, they want their kids to be recognized as the people who are connected with this medicine. And for that, they need funds to plant huachuma, they need funds to repopulate huachuma. And they need funds too. So that their kids don't have to go and work in agriculture that they can stay in.
And then the third thing that they asked for.
[00:40:28] Josip Orlovac del Río: Yeah, the third thing everybody has the same voice about is to stop using commercial San Pedro powder or San Pedro chips all around the world. We find that the main cause of devastation of the wild populations that not only affect the plant itself biologically, but affect a lot of what we call the spirit of the plant that inhabit these mountains close to these rivers and lakes. The force, the stress of the spirit of the plants are related, of how many heads of the plant are connecting the stars, the sunlight, the moonlight to the land. No catch analyzing all these celestial light to the earth, to the land which we inhabit. They use the commercialism of the ships and powder of San Pedro. That 95% comes from white populations is a massed action that we are totally in agreement that happens now. So it's a message to everybody in the world that they don't know from where the huachuma they are taking outside Peru, even inside Peru. What we consume in the centers inside Peru come from these sources. 95% illegally posted. It is so sad that it still happens.
[00:42:12] Laurel Sugden: Yeah. And so there's not a single percent of those 60 people who says, this is our medicine and nobody else's, and nobody else can drink it, nobody else can use it, nobody else can grow it. No, there's none of that. It's a genuine desire to share and to, you know, for the plant to prosper, for the people to prosper, for people to gain healing from this plant. And the question is, are they going to be recognized?
Are their plants going to survive in the wild?
And how can every single individual person, whether they're going to a retreat center, whether they're serving medicine, whether they're establishing a retreat center outside of Peru, how are they building reciprocity with the plant and to their business plan and to their I financial plan into their, you know. How are they building reciprocity with plants and communities into their plan?
[00:43:10] Dennis McKenna: Right. Well, wow, you've unpacked a lot of interesting issues here. I mean, what I am taking away from what you've been saying, you know, there are many things, but I think at the core of this whole thing in some ways is respected.
People have to show respect for the plant and for the people that take care of it, for the people that have the knowledge. And you see this sort of beginning to emerge with the peyote plant and to some extent, ayahuasca, the idea that gringos should not take peyote, you know, for example, they should just, they should just, out of goodwill and respect for the cultural roots, they should say, we're going to leave that plant alone. You know, we can take mescaline. We want mescaline experience. You can take mescaline. You know, that's part of it. I think there has to be mutual recognition of the needs of the indigenous people who are the stewards, the symbiotic, you know, sort of vanguard of humanity's relationship with these plants.
You know, the communities have to be respected, the plants have to be respected. There has to be goodwill and a sort of commitment. That profit needs to take 2nd, 3rd or 4th place. In other words, the motivation to make money should not be given, should not be emphasized. Sure, people can get dried huachuma powder and export it, and they can probably make money out of that, but what is the impact of that? And what are the adverse consequences?
It always comes down to education and trying to make people understand the complexities of these issues, and a mutual commitment to working together to bring the communities together. What can the north american people, and how can they collaborate with the indigenous people so that everybody benefits? And you use the word which is very much, very current now, but very true is reciprocity.
And reciprocity means to give back.
And reciprocity is something that the west has ignored in terms of its relationship to the botanical riches of the new world for 500 years, ever since the columbian exchange.
It doesn't apply just to peyote or ayahuasca. The same considerations apply to many food plants and many medicinal plants.
Capitalism is a culprit here, the pursuit of blind prophets.
Never mind the consequences. And you see that happening. And we can also all see now what this is doing to the planet, this rapacious commitment to expansion, to profit, to commercial exploitation.
Never mind who gets hurt, never mind what gets hurt.
It's got to stop. And the irony is, the irony with all of that is that with these sacred medicines, with these psychedelic medicines, they're supposed to wake people up. They are a messenger from the earth to wake up to what we are doing to our planet. But many people, I think many of the people who are involved in the commercial trade, perhaps, are not getting that message. And so it's complicated, but there are solutions. I mean, one of them, I just want to at least mention the organization that you, Josip, many of your colleagues have created, the Huachuma collective, and well put links to the Huachuma collective on the podcast site so that people could look at it. But you're trying to address many of these issues, and it's a place where people can come and learn about what you're trying, what you're doing, not what you're trying to do, but what you're actually doing and what you're trying to do. So, yeah, every time I have conversations like this, I come away with a mixture of optimism and despair in a certain way to know what is going on. There's so much unconsciousness, so much blindness to the global consequences and the local consequences of what the exploitation of these plants is doing, and yet a lot of optimism that people like you and Josip and your colleagues and other very good people are trying to find solutions.
And that encourages me. At the same time, we have to say, it's not happening fast enough, it's not happening enough.
So it's discouraging.
[00:49:16] Laurel Sugden: And I think they're complicated questions, but in a way, there are simple answers.
A lot of it does come down to money. And if you think about the number of retreat centers starting in huachuma and sacred Valley and in Cusco, and what, 10% of their profits given back to communities and to projects, planting Huachuma and taking care of cultures would do, 10%, 20%?
Huachuma collective has a project that is just beginning now in one of the highest harvest zones of wild old grow San Pedro and Lima, which is a pilot conservation center for old growth huachuma. And this community that we're working with is learning to sustainably harvest their San Pedro. They're rejecting outside businesses coming in, and they're basically sustainably harvesting their San Pedro and allotting a piece of community land where they're propagating on these plants and starting to cultivate for the first time ever. And just to think what 10% of the profits from the retreat centers and the sacred Valley could do for that project and for that community, they could propagate tens of thousands of plants, if that were the case. And so I think there's a really personal thing, too.
If somebody does have the money to go travel to Peru and spend $1,000 at a retreat center or $10,000 for a San Pedro retreat, could they give $5,000 or $10,000 to conservation efforts here. The plant's giving to me. I'm paying for the plant to give something to me.
And can I match that to see what I can give to the plant?
The amounts of money that we're talking about here that would really make a difference to get started with projects. And a lot of these communities are not gigantic amounts.
And so it really is the question of each person's personal integrity, of each retreat center's integrity.
And we are hopeful and optimistic that people can play the numbers game a little bit better and understand what they can give back to the plant as they're taking from the plant.
[00:51:54] Dennis McKenna: How many retreat centers are there in the sacred valley that are using Huachuma? Do you have any idea?
[00:52:03] Josip Orlovac del Río: More than how many centers, is how many people use these retreat centers to offer all sorts of ceremonies? And of course, I believe, like almost all the retreat centers, the awareness business in Cusco Sacred Valley, are open to serve huachuma, if the people who rent the retreat center for the weekend will offer. You got Ayahuasca, kambo, Huachuma. Yeah, but I cant say exactly how many, but I can count people who serve huachuma in Sacred Valley that are 90, 95% foreigners from outside Peru. I can count for hundreds, at least.
There are hundreds. There are hundreds of people that come, stay, taste huachuma 1, 2, 3 times, come again and change his mood of life and become an expat in the sacred valley. So I can easily count by hundreds.
[00:53:09] Dennis McKenna: Are there any of these centers that have actually made this commitment to give ten or 20% of their profits back?
[00:53:18] Laurel Sugden: Not yet.
[00:53:20] Dennis McKenna: Well, we need to get on that. We can start that. I know some people that might be the center for some that might help to catalyze it. I know.
Yeah. Well, it's a conversation we can have offline, but I know one center that I've worked with for many years, though, I think, and they actually have a Huachumero in residence now.
And, yeah, we need to propagate that idea, I think, because most of these centers, and it's true of ayahuasca, too, most of these centers are not operated by indigenous people. They're operated by foreigners, you know. Even if they're Peruvians, their They're practitioners, their curanderos are employees.
Hopefully they are paid well, but it's got to be beyond that. You know, if there has to be more of a.
They have to have a bigger stake.
And that's possible.
That's something that we can start talking about. And I think this idea is fantastic. The idea to get these retreat centers, hold their feet to the fire a little bit, give some of these profits back to the indigenous communities.
Yeah. Well, this has been a very good conversation. Do you have. I mean, we could talk all day, but is there anything we haven't touched on that you want to be sure that we touch on?
[00:55:12] Josip Orlovac del Río: I just can say to everybody in the world who sometimes enjoys the magic of the plant, that they do something for the plant. And at least if you try to balance to make a equilibrium on what you receive from the plant by or planting to save, to take care of some plants, or to be aware from where your medicine comes.
[00:55:38] Dennis McKenna: Thank you.
Laurel, any parting thoughts here?
[00:55:47] Laurel Sugden: I think my parting thought is always just the reminder that huachuma is as alive as we are, or very much more alive, possibly, and that being in balance with this plant inside ourselves and in our communities matters a lot.
[00:56:09] Dennis McKenna: Okay, well, thank you so much for taking time to talk about all this. It's very important and we're honored that you come to the Brainforest Café and we will spread this far and wide and.
Yeah, so thank you very much. We'll put up all the appropriate links and hopefully people will notice.
[00:56:38] Laurel Sugden: So, thank you very much, Dennis. And thank you for everything that you and McKenna Academy do for knowledge preservation and for people and plants and inspiration, and it's wonderful to talk to you.
[00:56:52] Josip Orlovac del Río: Thank you, Dennis.
[00:56:53] Dennis McKenna: Well, we're doing what we can. You know, we're all in this together. Let's face it, we have to. We share this beautiful planet and we'd like it to thrive and continue beautifully for millions of years. We'll see.
Thanks again. Love you, two. Bye bye.
[00:57:13] Laurel Sugden: We love you too, Dennis. Goodbye.
[00:57:15] Dennis McKenna: Bye bye.
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